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scooby007
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Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:52 pm

Eduo, in regards to your comment: people saying its “horrible, horrible”. Why let someone deter you in the first place? As long as its not a fool mans quest, then you should continue in achieving your goal, despite any opposition. You shouldn’t let anyone’s comments put you off. Use their comments not to sink into the abyss, but to rise.

Its important to remember that occasionally some healthy criticism helps steer you in the right direction, this is the only aspect of anyone’s criticism you should actually take on board.

You saying: “guess this is where I step down and become just a silent developer behind the scenes”.
Correct me if I’m wrong, that to me is a defeatist attitude on your part with a hint of pessimism which you can do without.

You need to realise your ideas are sound and I’m sure OS would incorporate them in the future. Just because your ideas are not implemented overnight doesn’t necessarily mean you’re obsolete.
These things take time, as they say: “All good comes to he who waits”, right? It may be along time, but… patience.

OS, the Bayesian Rating system sounds good, but it still boils down to whether the users will actually Partake in the practice of using the said system. You’ll go through the trouble of setting it up when it may still be ignored like the system currently in place.

I agree with rogard’s hypothesis. The shiny metal apparently does make a difference to a certain extent. I’ve personally seen a trusted platinum members subtitle almost completely ignored over a well known gold member, when clearly the platinum members file is an edited version and the other is just a raw transcript off the production line. What can you do?

But it’s not just about who’s got a shiny “****”. On occasion I have seen a gold member ditched for another gold member. Lets name them GM1 and GM2. GM1 uploads subtitles for a particular series quite often (raw crappy transcripts), in comes GM2, who in my opinion is trusted and supplies good edited subtitles and his subtitle is as good as diced. Where GM1 heavily out numbers GM2’s downloads by the thousands.

How do you deal with that? Some people just don’t know better or don’t care unless it’s a machine translation.

I guess, what you’ve come to expect or get used too, you keep taking, instead of looking for anything better.

p.s Aloha alex. Don't know if you remember me, but I agree not many people know about opening the file up, hence, them being irritated and going someplace else in avoidance of the advertisement.

xgpalex28
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Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:08 pm

Hey scooby, to be honest i remember you, but i don`t know where from ( it`s been a 2 hour problem and still counting! :D ).

I`ll give another example from TVSubtitles ( no, i don`t like them at all, but they have 1 good thing, that i`m going to write now )... the vote system. It`s quite new ( 1 year i think.. even less ) and it works. TVS used to have lots of fake files. When the voting system was implemented, users started to vote, and most of the files ( new ones ) were quite good tagged. Bad subtitles had 5-10-20 good votes, and 100 bad votes. This shows that some people care about the quality, and they come back and vote it.

I think the reason this doesn`t work on OS is because the Vote feature is TOO SMALL. The page is big ( lots of pictures, info, links etc ) and the Vote buttons are somewhere in the top right.

I usually scroll 1/4 of the page to view the comments and download link. Vote is off the picture when doing that... and i`m sure there are others like me.

Change the vote buttons, make them bigger and use only 2 buttons: Bad / Good ( red / green ). Think you can put them below the poster. See how that works out. I think it will catch users attention.

Make some tips ( Like the Download blabla with Scrubbu at 25 mbps ) like: Vote a subtitle after watching it to help others.

This worked for TVS because it`s simple. Yes / No. 100% sure you see it, since it`s near Download link.

( Sorry for giving TVS as an example so many times, but it`s easier to explain this way, and easier for you to understand )
Hello, my name is Alex and i`m an Addic7

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scooby007
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Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:50 pm

I asked for your permission using your subtitles and editing them? mainly supernatural?

anyway I think TVS system is good to a certain extent, but otherwise it's flawed. You can go there and pick any subtitle link that you fancy and just vote. You don't even have to register to be able to do so. In my experience that's just giving fuel to callous people who may have a personal vendetta against you to vote bad for a subtitle just for names sake.

Oh, and whats worse... you can go back after 24 hours and recast another vote? and no one will no it's the same person with a grudge.

xgpalex28
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Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:57 pm

AH! Damn it! Now i remember! Thanks for clearing that out :P

Well, you`re right ( + the 24h thing is stupid )... but i don`t think there are many people that would rate a subtitle as bad just to make people avoid it. Even if there are, if the subtitle is good, the "Good" votes will be a lot more.

Anyway, one thing that should be noticed in TVS is the position and size of the Vote buttons.
Anyway, i would test this out to see how it goes. I had people asking if they could vote or if there is a vote system on Addic7ed. There are good users on the internet :P
Hello, my name is Alex and i`m an Addic7

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scooby007
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Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:07 pm

Liar :cry:

Seriously I think you're being an optimist. These people do exist. Usually one knows another and a like a pack of wolves they keep coming back to cast a bad spell. It is a good idea if it wasn't for such people,
but unfortunately flawed in my opinion. goodluck in setting it up over at your end. There are good people on the net, but few and far in between.

A good idea as long as you have to be registered to vote and not be able to recast a vote every 24 hours.
Last edited by scooby007 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rogard
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Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:43 pm

scooby, what kind of attitude is that now? You must be kidding!

I believe all users are inherently GOOD. at least the vast majority. They just enjoy a free service and they are glad it exists. Most of them never become a member or will ever vote or drop a single word about all this, but they are out there in front of their screens and they enjoy their films with our subtitles.
Many users probably don't know how much work it is to even rip a subtitle from a dvd so that it is (nearly) perfect, let alone make a transcript. Others may be kids and teenagers, and they don't know much and don't care much - about anything.

Only a tiny fraction of users is really malicious. They are obviously looking for mischief and trouble and wreak havoc as a hobby. I don't know why and I don't even want to know. Again: those are just a few. They might appear to be more numerous because their actions have such an impact.

The second I'd be convinced that most people out there are bad I'd quit. That's a fact.

@everybody

I think this discussion contains several aspects that are connected yet separate from each other. It's quite hard to discuss a general improvement of quality, how to get people to vote, web versus API, the banning of machine translations, financial issues, golden *****es all at once.

I just wanted to say that I am merely suggesting something I think could be useful. My ideas might not be stunning but at least I have 2 years of hardcore admin experience, so I kind of know how this thing works.

I am convinced that we need the users for any succes in increasing quality, so this is not just a theoretical discussion. We can't sit in our ivory towers in the clouds at 10.000ft above ground and decide about the common world of subtitles. Even admins cannot rule anything and make it happen. The subbers make the subs, so we need to give them a reason to do an even better job. If that involves badges, highscore lists or even golden *****es, so be it. Whatever it takes.

Oh and by the way: I think we're pretty much all idealists, ain't that right?

PS: scooby. I meant Sisyph_o_s. I was feeling Greek that day (and it's a correct spelling too). But you're welcome to spell-check my posts anytime, my friend. Just don't remove the original credits. ;-)

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scooby007
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Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:08 pm

“We can't sit in our ivory towers in the clouds at 10.000ft above ground and decide about the common world of subtitles. Even admins cannot rule anything and make it happen. The subbers make the subs, so we need to give them a reason to do an even better job. If that involves badges, high score lists or even golden *****es, so be it. Whatever it takes”.


I agree with the above and who said we've made all the rules. It's been said before nothing in here is laid out in concrete. It is susceptible to change. For anything to happen almost everyone that takes part in a subtitle site will need to be involved to some extent. The badges idea… I think to some extent it is used on subtitlesource.org, how and if it helps them…? (Unless someone goes down there to ask. Incidentally, not me).

My only fear is, when this debate comes to a standstill, everything discussed here will still not come into affect. Who knows where we’ll be in 10 years time. Come back here and things may still be unchanged. Its very difficult to bring about change, especially of this magnitude. The only simpler way would be to ban all inferior subtitles altogether - where a programme picks up on the subs contents and refuses to upload it. Again, I think subtitlesource.org has a similar function to this, but I’m not entirely sure. (No! I'm not their press agent). But would it be the way to go, to do this? I doubt it, but that’s the simplest way.

@ Rogard

in regards to the kiddies? Well, I probably face or see a lot of immaturity, that’s why I said what I said. I’ll try seeing things from your perspective (optimistic) that they’re just going through a difficult stage in their life, mainly puberty or ‘I’m angry at my parents syndrome’. (Grow up).

It hasn’t happened to me personally, but sometimes you might get a newbie coming on the scene. They don’t know the difference between a good subtitle or an inferior one, they just want to help and partake. They upload a machine translation and a hurl of profanity comes flying their way? If it’s your first time here and experiencing that, would you come back or run with your tail between your legs?
Hell yeah run. Treat them nice, warn them nicely and you never know, he/she may become the next best subtitle up loader on this (any) site over time. Peace out.

P.s. I don’t know where, eduo’s gone, but I would have liked his view on a new program I was thinking of, especially since it's his field of expertise (even though he disagrees with this practice). A program which can create some kind of watermark inside a subtitle file and preventing disputes over who did what. Is this a good/possible idea? I don’t know, but I would like to see such a program.

p.p.s. I get the joke about leaving the credits, but many here are going to be thinking I'm a sub thief. You just branded me like a steer. Ouch... that hurts. You're killing me man.
Last edited by scooby007 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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rogard
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Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:21 pm

Even if this discussion doesn't lead directly to any results, it's still better to express our thoughts and share them than to bury them inside those super-brains of ours, right?

I certainly learn something new each time, so that's enough reason for me to keep talking.
I had this idea about the redesign of the voting feature during this discussion. I never realized before that on all the sites I know, the place or the way the rating is done is simply wrong. How can you vote right after or even before you download something? You need to see the film first and then come back, but that's such a hassle. I don't know a site where I can review my latest downloaded subtitles and where there is an easy way to vote for them. Well, I'll add it to the subscene wishlist. :-)

Here on OS, you are almost there. I can see which subtitles I've downloaded, but I can't have them sorted by date of download. That would be great. Well, it's hidden somewhere in my profile, so it would be cool if it was easier to access...

About the kids: If you are 12 years old or so, you are expected to be childish by definition. I believe the majority of subtitle users are in their teens. At least that's what alexa.com statistics and other sources say. Seems like a good explanation why some users are immature...they will grow up eventually. Just give them ample time.

Every one of us started into the subtitle world as a rookie and we didn't know anything about rules or etiquette or subbing. I mean, sometimes there aren't even any rules to read, and even if there are: who reads them anyway?

I am 100% with you: instead of shock and awe it's much better to explain why something is not so good. I've got a 40% success rate with this approach. Not too shabby. We should never assume that even someone who violates rules repeatedly is a bad guy. Maybe their English is just too bad to even understand our warnings, or they can't see our point, or they just like to annoy the hell out of people who try to tell them what not to do. Well, if I remember correctly, that could have been me a long while ago...

By the way, when I look at my first attempts at subbing, ripping or editing...it's horrible - at least in comparison to what I do now. I think I even removed the annoying credits back then...ahem...ooops. So how can I condemn anybody else?

Speaking of subtitlesource: they have that system where they only have 1 subtitle per release (+1 for HI). That's awesome, provided it is really the best version. I wonder how they do it? Checking each subtitle and comparing it to the existing one? Wow...
Anyway, it's clear and clean and it proves that it can be done. Oh, and they don't even need a voting system since all subtitle are hand-picked and improved by the admins. Intriguing and truly a huge step towards good quality.

I like their user statistics as well. That's where I got the user ratio idea from. Personally, I love statistics. Can't really explain why. If there are statistics that tell me that I have made 0.25% of all postings on OS, then there could be other statistics as well: about my download ratio per subtitle and the average vote and ....whatnot. Personally, I couldn't care less about shiny badges, but I like the feeling when I see that 176580 people have downloaded my subtitles. I also like it when I see that fellow subbers gave me a good vote or people just say thank you. That is indeed one main reason why I try to do my best. Since a good feeling is all we get for our efforts, it can't be overestimated in its importance.

NOTE: It was indeed meant as a joke when I wrote that scooby should keep the credits. He always does!
subscene.com admin ++ subtitle quality maniac ++ idealist ++ subber

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scooby007
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Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:22 pm

I just uploaded an edited version there a while ago and it wasn’t there later. Was it replaced by a better version? I doubt it. I think they just keep the “good enough” versions, not necessarily the best. You mentioned if they go through each subtitle individually? Is that even feasible? I think you should go ask them on how their programming sorts it out or if it's manually done. Fear not, for I will be right behind you carrying the flag.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed but, almost every site you go to they always have one particular feature you wouldn’t mind having. Putting them all together on one site would be fantastic and a “Sisyphus” task to say the least. Not to mention if even os or subscene have the funding/resources to be able to perform all the required changes.

I guess we’ll be stuck in a rut for some time to come.

In regards to the kiddies: Well you can wait for one set to blossom but, they’ll be replaced and the vicious cycle begins anew.

p.s. I left and replied to your PM on subscene.

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eduo
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Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:44 pm

scooby007 wrote:P.s. I don’t know where, eduo’s gone? But I would have liked his view on a new programme I was thinking of, since its his field of expertise (even though he disagrees with this practice). A programme which can create some kind of watermark inside a subtitle file, preventing disputes over who did what. Is this a good/possible idea? I don’t know but I would like to see such a programme.


Eduo's here. I said my piece.

I'm against credits in subtitles for a simple reason: They promote the wrong kind of vanity and are easily "plagiarized". That's the reason I'm in favor of wiki-based subtitle editors: They provide a true record of who did what and the whole discussion on subtitles disappears, as there's proof of who created each version and each line of a subtitle. The subtitle itself shouldn't have a credit of any kind (not unlike a page of the wikipedia or a book in project gutenberg).

As I said, I'm not against subtitles having a subber associated to them and an editor, but I'm against the data being shown in the subtitles in the same way I would be against of hearing the ripper's name or seeing the ripper's logo in downloaded music or video. That's what places like addic7ed are for and I won't promote a carrot-and-stick behaviour I don't believe in.

I too see people are inherently good and will help, and that's the reason I also believe promotion should be made not through metrics but through honor and recognition and not badges, since these appeal to the worst in all of us and promote tricks and infighting (hence my offer of using upvotes for subtitles and "thanks" for subbers).

As mentioned before, you don't need to share these ideas (and I don't mind knowing you don't, really) but since they're so orthogonal to what's being discussed I prefer to take a step back.

PS: Scooby: The current system verifies uploaded subtitles against existing versions. If it's too similar (for example, if only the credits were changed) then the OS system will not create a new copy. This was a MARVELOUS addition to the filtering and, although it can be improved, it's pretty good in average.

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oss
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Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:00 am

i just want add, this filtering system is turned on only for anonymous uploads, as I know. After trusted uploaders and so on I will turn it on to all "untrusted" members, so we will get rid off these.

If somebody want to be trusted member (and he is new member on opensubtitles) he must write to admin first, when he wants upload some similar, but better subtitles in same language for same movie, where subtitles already exists.

I will implement this in the future. Today I will turn on TRUSTED members, searching and so on.

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scooby007
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Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:42 pm

The reason I suggested the said programme is so credits don’t have to be displayed. I got the idea from rogard. I just thought it could be some kind of quality insurance seal. I will not agree with you and will voice my opinion if your opinion contradicts mine or vice versa (That’s how it should be). That’s the only way to learn. When you challenge somebody, an adversary can make you see things from a different perspective.

So I understand your concern over this issue but, I think you should only be frustrated when you get things plastered all over the subtitle. A simple credit can sometimes help you find a better or “Trusted” subtitle. Once I was on subscene and I thought I’d just download the sub from there instead of coming back here. 8 subs popped up for the same release, I saw LeapinLar’s name on one of them and took it without a second thought (Quality recognition).

For quality assurance purposes I think its good but I also feel what you do. I have conflicting views. You can’t win either way.

The sub clone detecting feature you talked about can be easily bypassed. A few days ago an edited version of my subtitles was re-uploaded 6 times, yes 6. The person put up the same sub with 6 different release names and to accomplish this he inserted irrelevant hyphens through the sub. (Not to separate speech).

I see OS just mentioned some scrutiny controls have been activated, maybe this will help.

OS, I see you have changed badges for some of the up loaders which I think is fantastic. Thank you but, I can not help feeling a little anxiety. As I’m sure I myself uploaded some crappy subtitles when I first started. Subtitles which definitely need obliterating (finding them's the problem, since it was along long time ago, in a galaxy far far away). Good idea. :P
Peace out, gents.

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eduo
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Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:15 pm

When you challenge somebody, an adversary can make you see things from a different perspective.


I'm sorry, is this for me? Adversaries? I haven't challenged anyone, just commented that I didn't agree, even if I understood the logic behind what was said.

I don't mind, but since I don't share the opinion I can't support it. I'm not fighting it or trying to convince anyone. I apologize if It sounded that way, it wasn't my I intention. Fi me it's not trivial, which is the point I was trying to make across.

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scooby007
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Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:27 pm

You don’t need to apologise, what for? Differential in opinion is a good thing, I welcome it. You learn new points and investigate new variables, that before you probably didn’t think were possible.

Adversary… in layman terms, it was meant in a more sarcastic way than anything else: different logic, different opinions and different beliefs or even ideals, clashing and such… not necessarily clashing in the sense of a gladiatorial death match. :)

(we had a Greek in our midst the other day. I‘m feeling Roman).

From the conversations we’ve had and from reading your posts, I understand you pretty well and I don’t think your obtrusive. You provide sound council.

I’d like it if you didn’t walk away from here feeling any discontentment. Peace.

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oss
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Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:48 pm

2 poets :) so nice reading from here.

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