Forum rules
Under no circumstances is spamming or advertising of any kind allowed. Do not post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate others security. Profanity or any kind of insolent behavior to other members (regardless of rank) will not be tolerated. Remember, what you don’t find offensive can be offensive to other members. Please treat each other with the kind of reverence you’d expect from other members.
Failure to comply with any of the above will result in users being banned without notice. If any further details are needed, contact: “The team” using the link at the bottom of the forum page. Thank you.
DatDudeCee
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:55 pm

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:52 pm

@SmallBrother
When I capitalize it's not meant to convey me SCREAMING (although I do know that's how it's commonly understood). I use it emphasize a Point...and capitals grab the eyes attention. Anyway, according to you..15 Hours is what it takes to make a full translation of a Movie and probably longer for TV Series..although I'm sure TV series differ depending on episodes. It takes 2 minutes to CREATE the Machine translation. And about 1-3 hours Editing spelling, sentence structure, CONTEXT, Re-Wording, Grammar and Re-Numbering. So it STILL takes a bit of time to do a Machine Translation RIGHT...but once you start getting the hang of it, those times lower. And if someone comes after you and decides to "improve" or completely "Re-translate" according to their standards..so be it. That's how communities and "fans" start to sprout. A "dislike" of certain Uploaders..and a TRUST of other Uploaders and Transcribers. Heck, that may even turn into money-making opportunities for Transcribers with Users paying for Requests for certain Productions to be made. With the Expensive Transcription services out there...it wouldn't be the WORST idea to pay a buck or two for something these Uploaders love to do anyway.
You keep bringing this argument to QUALITY of the Subs when quality is an entirely different argument altogether. I don't want to have the Sub Quality argument with you cause those stray rounds might land on your precious Trusted Uploaders and Admins (hey, everyone makes mistakes subtitling, right?). But the Machine Translation argument really lands home for the Vast and Open Lands of OpenSubs OUTSIDE the "New and Popular Uploads" that hit the site. The Foreign stuff that DOESNT make big stage but are good enough to STILL deserve a Subtitle.
I'll give another example...there's an Italian Apocalyptic Action flick called Mondocane(Dogworld): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13113298/? ... _sr_srsg_0. I actually MADE Opensubs aware of this flick and created the Request Page (twice) for it hoping it would prompt someone to upload English subs. I actually ALREADY have Italian Language subs for the movie but I'm afraid to Machine Translate, Edit. And Post it as I'm afraid YOU(SmallBrother) might delete them and waste the hours of work I would put in making it and posting it. Us User Uploaders can make OpenSubs better...but Y'all Admins keep knockin the Hustle.

User avatar
SmallBrother
Site Admin
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Somewhere on this globe

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:40 pm

Machine translation plus 1-3 hours

Yes, if you spend 1-3 hours 'fixing up' a machine translation (i.e. trim out the obvious typical machine translation symptoms), it's possible to make something which on first sight *LOOKS* decent. But this is not actually fixing, it's just camouflaging.

If you spend 3 hours on a movie of let's say 1000 lines, that's roughly 10 seconds per line. That's barely enough to just read it and add a comma or a dot. How can you check and correct within 10 seconds per line the text ("spelling, sentence structure, CONTEXT, Re-Wording, Grammar and Re-Numbering" as you say), not to mention taking care of the basic necessary technical and formatting aspects, following general subtitling guidelines? And how can you check and correct spelling, grammar and context anyway if you don't master both languages? Please don't tell me you speak Dutch, Turkish, Finnish, Italian and Polish.

Quality

About quality, I can only repeat what I already said. Subs don't have to be super top quality. Many subtitles in the Dutch section are just mediocre, no problem. I suppose in other language sections it's more or less the same: some good, some not so good. But I don't want to severely disappoint the downloaders and frustrate or even chase away the real subtitlers, so there's a limit to what's acceptable. That limit is quite low, but what you have been uploading is pretty far below that.

Improving

The same thing about improving: I can only repeat what I said. People will not improve your machine translations. They will download it, maybe give an instant and blind 10/10-rating out of premature happiness, then watch the movie with your subs and be very very disappointed. Or, the smarter downloaders will preview it and mark it as bad. But that's it. There is no indication whatsoever that people will improve/correct subs like yours.

A small and quick evaluation of one of your subtitles

Let's have a look at a random subtitle you uploaded, the English subs for Mocro Maffia S03E03:
Upload: https://www.opensubtitles.org/en/subtit ... -aouita-en (disabled)
Subtitle file: https://dl.opensubtitles.org/en/downloa ... 1957566360

► First of all, the comment added to the subtitle upload is remarkable:

"If any problems..please just Re-Order the Sequence numbers (I doubled up on some when editing and was too lazy to resequence). But it should work fine with VLC and Non-Sensitive Vid Players."
Basically, you add a tutorial to your upload how to make the subtitle work. Wouldn't it be better to upload subs that just work?

► Then the subtitle itself:

I haven't checked by referring to the video, so no idea about the accuracy of the translation or synchronization. But from a quick look at the subtitle file only I have already found these flaws in the first 50 time sequences:

● The duration of line #1 is 440 milliseconds. Way too short to read anything.

● Line #2: RECHERCHEUR: That new group(gang) seems to be | taking over the whole city by now.
Your Artifical 'Intelligence' thinks that "rechercheur" is the name of someone. But it's not. It's a rank of a police officer and should be translated by "captain" or "sergeant".
Why "group(gang)"? Why adding a synonym between brackets? This is a subtitle, not a dictionary.

● Lines #4 and #5 are overlapping. Syntax error, unpredictable behavior.

● Line #15 has a reading speed of 49 CPS. This is 2-3 times faster than what a normal human being can read.

● Between line #19 and #20 an empty line is missing. Syntax error, unpredictable behavior.

● Line #21: Re-Subbed by Anonymous Downloader | ((( <---All Corrections, Sent. Structure,->)) | ((( <---Translations, and Subtitler ---> ))) | ((( <---Understandings inside ----> ))) | ((( <---the Parenthesis ---------> )))
Why all this info on five lines inside a subtitle, in the middle of the episode?

● Line number #21 occurs two times in a row. Syntax error, unpredictable behavior.

● Line #38: Dood. | (Literal Translation means: Dead)
Why writing a Dutch word ("Dood.") and then on the line below between parenthesis explaining what it means? This is a subtitle, not a dictionary.

● Between line #45 and #46:
Line number 44.5? A line number with decimals??? Syntax error, unpredictable behavior.
Timecode 3300:05:02,960 --> 00:05:04,520? A time code starting with "3300"??? Syntax error, unpredictable behavior.

● The duration of line #49 is 190 milliseconds. Way too short to read anything.

So these linguistical and technical flaws already occurred in only the first 50 lines. And these things are not petty picking, they are crucial. I am sorry to say, but this subtitle is worse than a raw, untouched two-minute machine translation. You really think subs like this will "make OpenSubtitles better"? You really think subs like this takes "the bulk of the work out of a professional translators hands"? Are you serious, you are trying to convince me or anybody to allow such subtitles on OpenSubtitles?

What are you doing?

Last but not least, a few posts ago, Scooby007 summed up the criteria when a fixed up machine translation could possibly be allowed:

1: It is not for a movie or TV series that is pretty popular and that will have a close to retail/verbatim standard subtitle soon anyway.
2: The translation isn't complete jibber-jabber rubbish. In other words, when checking from "show preview" the text makes no coherent sense at all.
3: Some attempt has been made to clean the subtitle as best as possible.
4: Clearly marked/uploaded as a machine translation with comments stating it is and such.


After that, you uploaded in the Polish section two machine translations for very recent movies: "X (2022)" and again "The Outfit (2022)", with BTW 10 minutes (not 1-3 hours) between the uploads :wink: Thank god, the Polish admin deleted them within an hour, protecting the downloaders and in the case of "X" also protecting some real human subtitler apparently being busy with it.

None of your uploads so far have met the above mentioned criteria. And now you are suggesting to upload subs for Mondocane (2021)? It really beats me what you have in mind... But let's cut it short:

Bottom line

Please do not upload any more machine translations.
If you continue to do so, I will block your account.
Thank you for understanding.
Nowadays a VPN is a must for everyone. A VPN allows you safe surfing and protects you against spying governments and companies.
I advise AirVPN - from € 2,75 per month. Click the below banner for more info.


Image

DatDudeCee
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:55 pm

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:08 pm

@SmallBrother
I'm starting to sense this Convo is pissing you off...which must mean I'm making an impact. You just nitpicked the hell out of my Mocro Maffia subs, showing you COMPLETELY didn't Give a F about my earlier message where I stated "I'M STILL BEGINNER STATUS"...and other phrases I've used...AND YOU'VE REITERATED in your correspondence back to me, about how I'm just a beginner. So to tear apart MY subs as a way of "outing" or "embarrassing" me to Discredit my VALID ARGUMENT on Machine Translations is Pointless. MY ARGUMENT STILL STANDS bruh. Perhaps there are subtitlers who are BETTER than me at Editing Machine Translations. You saying THEY deserve to suffer because I made a "syntax error" on my Mocro Maffia subs??
Im afraid to make another point on someone who finds my subs laughable "fixing" it themselves as I know you'll make this ENTIRE message about Quality again and write out my entire Mocro Maffia Season subtitle in your next message... sliding us into yet ANOTHER Debate Loop.
As far as the ONLY "Sort Of" Valid argument you made in your last response...THE 1-3 HOUR Editing time. Very impressive Math, but have you actually tried to Edit a Machine Translation for a movie. I gave the 1-3 hours as a "roundabout" figure. I've been mostly editing Machine Translations for TV SHOWS and 1-3 hours is the time it took to Edit, per episode. And I usually do it while watching the show myself. So I gave that figure assuming the "Editor" is actually WATCHING the 1 and a half to 2 hour Movie he/she is Sub Editing. It's slower..YES..it's a little irritating with all the Pausing..sure...but as a GOOD SUBTITLER, you usually enjoy the show a little less. At least my way will motivate more folks to subtitle these Movies and TV shows, making the community bigger...and getting more content subbed. And before you go off into a Quality vs. Quantity argument...and Loop us back into another BS sub Quality point I'll end this here.
If the other Subs I posted AFTER our Correspondence turned out to be Machine Translations then I'm Sorry. I actually downloaded those from ANOTHER Uploader and Posted them to the site as they were on the Requested List in that language. I usually Give the original uploader name and Thanks in the Sub description so I don't know HOW you thought it was MY machine translation. But I think I get what your real message is...and I won't upload any more subs to Opensubs. I've been having problems logging in and searching the site since we started our little debate...so I'm gonna assume one/some of your fans has been messing with my Opensubs account. Thank You for clearing things up for me...I'm glad the Admin isn't just messing with us and we at least know WHY they go so hard in getting rid of subs. I don't want to continue this exchange if it means I get F'd in the process of trying to express my ideas to you. So after your response to this message..I probably won't respond back. Thanks SmallBrother.

User avatar
SmallBrother
Site Admin
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Somewhere on this globe

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:27 pm

Okay.
Nowadays a VPN is a must for everyone. A VPN allows you safe surfing and protects you against spying governments and companies.
I advise AirVPN - from € 2,75 per month. Click the below banner for more info.


Image

User avatar
scooby007
Site Admin
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:49 pm
Location: Scandalous

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:19 pm

I'll tell you a little story of myself when I first started. I wanted to contribute and help the way you do. I was used to text messages and emails written as quick messages with no grammar, etc. So I used to take subtitles by Leapinlar and rogard and remove commas and fullstops as I found it easier to read like that.
Like quick-fire text messages.
Leapinlar had a discussion with me and after my explanation, he allowed me to do that.
Looking back at it, he was too kind, he shouldn't have allowed me to do that.
You live and learn.
Now I see what I was doing was completely pointless and if I went back and used those subs in question today, it would give me a headache using them. Not to mention that it had a bad impact on my grammar and English writing skills.

As you mentioned you are a beginner, and maybe years later you'll see the light the way I did, too.
You have to appreciate that some admins have been here years and know what they're talking about.
Their intention isn't to come across ungrateful and unappreciative.
I get you want to help, but in the long run, it's probably more harm than good.
If you have a lot of time on your hands, I suggest you narrow down what you upload to smaller amounts and concentrate more on the content quality.
Nowadays a VPN is a must for everyone. A VPN allows you safe surfing and protects you against spying governments and companies who collect your data. Click below image for more details and reduce your online digital footprint.

Image

DatDudeCee
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:55 pm

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Thu Jul 14, 2022 7:18 pm

Perhaps instead of talking about "MACHINE TRANSLATIONS"...we should be talking about "MACHINE GENERATED SUBTITLES"..a.k.a. SPEECH-TO-TEXT Subtitles. Apparently in the eyes of SmallBrother and his Support...THEYRE THE SAME EXACT THING. I DIDNT know this and made the mistake of Generating Subtitles from a reputable Speech-To-Text program but they were only 70-80% accurate. I stated this, posted I wanted help from a French Subtitler to fix the dialog, and repost the sub so EVERYONE could enjoy the Second Season of C'est comme ça que je t'aime(which Opensubs didnt previously have available). I posted these subtitles BEFORE another pointless Debate with SmallBrother who was SO MAD from the debate...that he went BACK to my profile...saw the Subs...and ASSUMED that I posted it just to SPITE HIM. And ironically, in that Debate I STATED I WANTED TO MAKE PEACE WITH HIM. But He Deleted those subtitles accusing me of NOT CARING about Posting Machine "TRANSLATIONS"..I'll write that again "TRANSLATIONS"...AND downgraded my account to Read-Only which is FURTHER dashing my dreams of becoming an Opensubs Admin.
I'm just writing this as a warning for other potential Subtitlers who wish to become Admin one day like I did. WHEN THEY SAY "MACHINE TRANSLATIONS"..they mean ANY MACHINE YOU USE TO WRITE A SUBTITLE. So from here on...just mail your subtitles to Opensubs so avoid getting INTERNET BULLIED by an Admin and have your account Downgraded for trying to show any motivation. And instead of feeling MAD like every other Subtitler that Opensubs sends packing...I actually FEEL SAD that I couldnt even make THIS work. Thanks SmallBrother.

User avatar
SmallBrother
Site Admin
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Somewhere on this globe

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:46 pm

Let's first start with a little and limited chronological summary of events:

- We have a very extensive discussion with you in this topic about machine translations. We state to you that machine translations may possibly be allowed, ONLY if the quality is a bit reasonable and it is not for a very recent movie or episode. What do you do after that? You upload very poor machine translations for a very recent and popular movie.

- Also on your profile page I have extensively explained why machine translations are not a good idea and that your idea to provide them "to be fixed by others" is not a good idea neither. Yet you continue uploading very poor machine translations "to be fixed by others".

- While your account is still active (but has an admin warning from SimplyTheBOSS) you create a new account. With this account you upload multiple very poor machine translations. You have an extensive discussion with SimplyTheBOSS in which he explains you that not only machine translations but all very low quality subtitles in general are not wanted. Yet you continue uploading very poor machine translations "to be fixed by others".

- I give you an official admin warning for your persisting in uploading very poor quality machine translated subtitles. You apologize ("sorry, I forgot"). But only a couple of hours later you posted subs for episodes of "C'est comme ca que je t'aime", which were - I am sorry to say - utter trash on any level one can think of.

- Meanwhile you keep on repeating the same of your arguments over and over again. "Others can correct it." "No subs are available." "I will remove them if I have better versions." "They are 70-80% correct." "But the timings are good." Etc. etc. But really, language is not even close to 70% correct, and timings are simply ridiculous.

I truly hope you can imagine this sequence of events is by now slightly starting to irritate me. And trust me, I am not the only admin who is irritated.


Now in your last post, you are twisting my words and playing the innocent victim multiple times. Once again, I truly hope you can imagine I am not going to go over every single occasion of that. But I'll give you one example.

You say: "I posted these subtitles BEFORE another pointless Debate with SmallBrother"
And on your profile page you say: "The C'est comme ça que je t'aime Season 2 subtitles went up BEFORE WE EVEN SPOKE."
But have a look at this:

Image

Note the red outlined: uploaded July 13th, 23:16 - this is less than 24 hours ago and AFTER all our discussions.

If you want peace with me:
1. Do not upload anything under any account anymore to OpenSubtitles, ever.
2. And please, oh, please, stop these pointless discussions. Don't you have better things to do?

Thank you.
Nowadays a VPN is a must for everyone. A VPN allows you safe surfing and protects you against spying governments and companies.
I advise AirVPN - from € 2,75 per month. Click the below banner for more info.


Image

User avatar
oss
Site Admin
Posts: 5879
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:26 pm
Contact: Website

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:17 am

Totally agree with @SmallBrother and I would give such user ban. Repeatedly breaking rules thats what happens...

DatDudeCee
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:55 pm

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Fri Jul 15, 2022 3:40 pm

SmallBrother...you wrote about EVERYTHING EXCEPT the difference between a Machine Translation and a Machine GENERATED Subtitle. I TOTALLY AGREE with taking down a Machine GENERATED subtitle when the better subtitle gets posted. I get you don't want MT Subs...but you YOU AND SIMPLYTHEBOSS spoke to me about Machine Translations..NOT..Machine GENERATED subs. I think this is one of those cases where you REACTED OUT OF FRUSTRATION, downgraded my account, and realized AFTER THE FACT that the punishment didn't fit the crime. I get that your trying to save face but I'm HUMBLY asking that you please reinstate my RayTheVet83 account to normal status. I have agreed NOT to download Machine Translations and NOW...I won't download Machine GENERATED subs either if that makes Admin happy.
Please do not make reference about my personal life and what I have to do with my time. We should keep this about subtitles and account status. Thanks.

User avatar
Funchalense
Site Admin
Posts: 885
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:09 pm

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:55 pm

I've been reading your posts and it's always the same..

Smallbrother said :
Please do not upload any more machine translations.
If you continue to do so, I will block your account.
Thank you for understanding.

You have been warned several times, and you continued to do the same, so you got your account blocked.
See if you understand one thing, we don't want automatic translation subtitles.


In the first post of this topic it says the following :
After some serious debate and discussion, Opensubtitles has decided to get rid of all “MACHINE TRANSLATED” subtitles.

What is the part you don't understand?
So, last warning stop with these pointless discussions.

User avatar
SmallBrother
Site Admin
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Somewhere on this globe

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:23 am

Thanks again to Funchalense for answering your second question.
In addition: only your second account (RayTheVet83) has been blocked. Your original account (DatDudeCee) is actually still active. So I don't really understand all the drama. But please, don't bother trying to explain (again).

As for your first question, there is no substantial difference between machine translations and speech recognition machine generated subtitles. What matters is the RESULT, not HOW you achieved the result. If you use translating machines and speech recognition software to create subs in Dutch, Italian, Polish, Swedish, Finnish, German, Japanese and Chinese (to name a few), while having ZERO knowledge of any of these languages, and on top of that ZERO knowledge of the technical aspects applicable to subtitles, the result is GUARANTEED to fail big time, as we have seen.

I am afraid your next step could be you asking an illiterate highland tribe in Mongolia to transcribe Dutch subtitles, claiming they are made by humans (not by machines) and therefore should not be deleted. That's why I made it easy for you by saying:
"Do not upload anything under any account anymore to OpenSubtitles, ever."
That shouldn't be too hard to understand.

I am not trying to save my face, I am trying to save OpenSubtitles.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Nowadays a VPN is a must for everyone. A VPN allows you safe surfing and protects you against spying governments and companies.
I advise AirVPN - from € 2,75 per month. Click the below banner for more info.


Image

User avatar
ai.opensubtitles.com
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:21 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact: Website

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:48 pm

Hi, this discussion is a bit confusing to me. I think there are a few misconceptions about the terms used here.

Machine Translation, AI Translation and Transcription are all not the same. Also the AI models are evolving pretty fast.

@SmallBrother ... I would like to give your account credits so you can test the AssemblyAI and AWS transcription on ai.opensubtitles.com.
Also any other Admin of OS if you want to test ... write me so I can setup credits.

User avatar
SmallBrother
Site Admin
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Somewhere on this globe

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:08 pm

What seems to missing all the time in all discussions about (whatever kind of) machine translations is the perception that a good TRANSLATION doesn't (necessarily) make a good SUBTITLE.

However, I am willing to try (again) any next generation translating machine. Feel free to provide with me with credits to do so.

Next, tell me which subtitle to use as source, and I will use this for a next gen AI Dutch subtitle and provide you with my evaluation of it.
Nowadays a VPN is a must for everyone. A VPN allows you safe surfing and protects you against spying governments and companies.
I advise AirVPN - from € 2,75 per month. Click the below banner for more info.


Image

User avatar
ai.opensubtitles.com
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:21 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Contact: Website

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:38 am

I agree with your opinion about translation. But it still can be very useful for certain situation, but it won't replace human made translation. But AI transcription can be helpful to get closer to good results.

Please login first:
https://www.opensubtitles.org/en/login/redirect-ai

and then go to:
https://ai.opensubtitles.com/report


and write me something like:
'Hi it's me SmallBrother, send me some credits."

Then I will get your user_id and I get send you credits.

As source you can choose yourself.

User avatar
SmallBrother
Site Admin
Posts: 3724
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Somewhere on this globe

Re: MACHINE TRANSLATION NOTICE!

Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:59 am

Hmm. I thought I replied, but I dont see my post. Anyway:
and then go to:
https://ai.opensubtitles.com/report


and write me something like:
'Hi it's me SmallBrother, send me some credits."
Done.
As source you can choose yourself.
I asked you for the source subtitles, because if I will choose the source, I think I will know in advance if the result will be probably awful or possibly acceptable...
Nowadays a VPN is a must for everyone. A VPN allows you safe surfing and protects you against spying governments and companies.
I advise AirVPN - from € 2,75 per month. Click the below banner for more info.


Image

Return to “General talk”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 55 guests