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rogard
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:37 pm
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Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:07 am

I looked at the links you gave me. Seems they have a similar system at addic7ed.com as well.
I can see the point although I don't really like the interface. And is this whole thing waterproof? As I see it, anybody could "edit" all the lines without actually changing much or anything at all.
Still, it is the best I've seen so far. Now we need someone to do it in a bigger scale. :-)

Apart from this version tracking system, I still think that it is important to find out if people are really interested in this stuff and to raise the awareness for the topic as a whole. First we need to define what we want to achieve, then we think about how that could be done. Thank you again for your answers, I certainly learned a lot. I've been eduo-cated. :lol:

(Is it just me or is this forum not exactly what you'd call "lively"? Come on you guys out there, you must have an opinion too.)

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eduo
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Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:17 pm

addic7ed uses the code I linked, precisely.

It is not waterproof, but it does allow a trail to be followed and reverted. And only valid users can edit subtitles, so vandalism is not common.
http://eduo.info/
[url=http://eduo.info/soleol/]OpenSubtitles from your desktop: SolEol for Mac/Windows/Linux[/url]
[url=http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php?showtopic=325&st=0&p=2480&#entry2480]My current episode processing work flow[/url].

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scooby007
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editing subtitles

Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:09 pm

rogard, below are my comments.
1. You should never put your name on a subtitle you didn't make.
Or improve by editing. I agree.
2. If you change something in an existing subtitle, leave the original credits untouched and add your name, clearly stating what you did exactly. (spell-checked/synced/formatted/completed/HI removed etc)
I agree.
3. Don't annoy the hell out of the audience. Your name and any kind of advertising should never be on screen for more than a few seconds, and not more often than one or two times (beginning and end).
I agree with this in general. I personally like credits only at the end.
a. Is it okay to upload subtitles from another site?
Yes, I think it's ok. Especially if there are no other good versions posted here. However, you should first check to make sure that that version is not already posted by someone else. OS will not let you post the exact same sub, but it only takes one character different for OS to let it be uploaded. What annoys me is when some people take my subs that I have painstakingly created and remove the credits and re-post on another site. Then someone else finds it and thinks it's a good sub and re-posts it here. It's still the same sub, but with the credits removed so OS lets it be uploaded. Sometimes they will add their own credits to it. That is REALLY annoying.
b. If you do that, how should you go about the credits? Should you say "uploaded by XXXX on [subtitle-site]"?
I'm not sure what to do here. Your suggestion has some merit.
c. Do you think it's okay to edit existing subtitles in general? Is there something similar to a "copyright" or "ownership" for subtitles?
I think it's ok to edit other subs, especially to correct mistakes or to re-time to another release. If you do, you should give credit to the original creator, if known. Most subs posted here are not created from scratch by the user (they are taken from a source like a subpack or DVD). Some are original (like an original translation or transcribed from listening). If they are, I think they do kind of "own" the sub and should have some rights to what's done with them. (Like having their credits in the sub and in the comment section of the upload.) But by posting them here, they may be giving up their "copyright".
d. Should the subber mention if their work is based on somebody else's work, even if they only took the timing or text from an existing subtitle to use it as a base for a translation?
They should mention if their work is based on someone else's work, but not if it's just timing or for translation.
d. Should machine translations be deleted as soon as they are spotted or can anybody think of a useful application?
The only use I can see for them is as a base for correction by someone else (timing or getting the general meaning of what's being said). I know it annoys a lot of people based on the number of comments posted by users. There were some users here who posted subs like those and put big warning comments not to download unless you were a submaker. Most users ignored those warnings and downloaded them anyway and then were angry and posted nasty comments to the uploader. I guess, after thinking about it, I would say to delete them right away. If submakers wanted a base for working from, they could make their own based on other language subs that are already posted. However, what some users call machine translations are really a manual translation or transcription by someone who does not have a full grasp of the language he is translating to or transcribing. It would be a shame to delete that person's hard work.
e. Aren't uploader highscore lists the wrong way to encourage good quality subtitles? Shouldn't there be a quality index instead of the # of uploads?
The subtitle rating system is supposed to be the gauge that users use to decide whether to download or not. OS recently eliminated anonymous ratings, which I TOTALLY agree with, so not as many subs are rated anymore. The sheer number of uploadings should not be a basis for deciding whether to upload that user's subs. Some users just find garbage from other sites and post them here in mass without checking the quality. I have seen some comments by users that say something like "this is a good sub, I can see why the uploader is a 'Gold Member'". 'Gold Member' has nothing to do with the quality of uploaded subs, just the number of uploaded subs.
f. Is there something like a universal code of conduct for the subtitle community? I couldn't find anything on the web.
I have never seen anything either. Maybe what you are starting will be a basis for that. Maybe if the operators of this site like what is being created here, they will post it somewhere here onsite as guidelines.
g. Is anybody here making subtitles for a living? I am just curious...
I doubt it.

I can't think of anything else to add to your list of comments and questions. Good start on a set of guidelines.

LeapinLar


Hello LeapinLar and rogard!

I agree with everything you guys said, I downloaded lost subs just today, I edited the mistakes and a few timings afterwhich I posted them back up with my name at the end but giving full credit to the original creator,

making it obvious they didn't belong to me and I still happened to offend the creator who said I stole his work??? at times I do this with series episodes as I like my subs to be to my standards, oh and to LeapinLar and rogard I have taken your subs and uploaded them on other sites as you mentioned before but I left your credits on the subs ;-) :lol: I would appreciate your comments,

and I would formerly like to ask you two if I may edit your subs in future instead? I may put my name on but trust me full credit will be given to you guys. Appreciate all the work by you guys, you the men. (if one of you is a women, my bad, sorry)

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rogard
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Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:41 pm

Hi scooby007,
for me it's perfectly all right if you upload my subtitles somewhere else, and you can edit them as you like - if you find something to improve, that is... :D There ain't no perfect subtitle ...although LeapinLar's are always damn close to perfection. I agree, LeapinLar is the man. I am male btw. :)

To my own shame, I have to admit that I used to download tons of subtitles from everywhere and uploaded them to my home site *without giving credits*, i.e. saying where they cam from. I might even have removed credits inside the subtitle, but I am not quite sure about that. That was long ago and before I realized how hard it is to make subtitle. So I can understand people don't even think about that.

I am still fighting an uphill battle preventing people from stealing subtitles. I am constantly aware that I don't have a reliable and fool-proof set of rules. Makes it quite hard, but I am not yet willing to give up.

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scooby007
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Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:51 pm

hi Rogard, incidently I knew you were male I was just worried about LeapinLar :D and thank you for your permission, I don't think there's anything wrong with your subs they're damn perfect it's just I personally prefer the sentences without ?'s & . al the time, so with your edited subs thats probably al I'l change there's a few people I know who also prefer it that way so I upload them again for their benefit. so thank you again i'm very much obliged for your permission.

p.s. rest assured I wont steal your thunder :lol: full credit will be given to you. Keep up the good work buddy! you is also the man

LeapinLar
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:04 pm
Location: USA

Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:32 pm

scooby007,

There's not much I can do about you or others uploading my subs to other sites, but it's ok with me. I would appreciate you keeping the credits.

But why would you remove the punctuation from a sub? Especially question marks. Hard of Hearing people (like me) need those to help understand what is happening. They cannot always hear the inflection in the voices to help them. If you do that, you should warn the users in the notes that the punctuation is missing on purpose so they can choose whether to download that version or not. I know the majority of users are not hearing impaired, but many are. Some of the subs I make have the punctuation missing from the source and I painstakingly put it back before I upload it.

I too am male, and a senior citizen BTW, so it's ok to call me a man.

LeapinLar
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:04 pm
Location: USA

Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:59 pm

Rogard,

I too, early in my sub career, modified a sub heavily (it needed it) and removed the original author's credits, mainly because he had them splattered all over the beginning of the sub. He challenged me on that since he had created that sub from scratch and had spent hours and hours on it. I felt really bad and learned a valuable lesson. Now if I modify someone else's sub, I always give credit to the original author, if known, and the worst I will do is move the credits from the beginning to the end. I always try to make my credits as short and unobtrusive as possible.

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scooby007
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Location: Scandalous

Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:33 pm

LeapinLar,

senior citizen huh? hats off to you good sir even though i'm pretty close my self.

Anyhoo in regards to the punctuation I and my friends don't like them as often as they appear so if I ever get the chance to remove them I do and then upload them again so my friends can enjoy them too as they have the same preference. BTW(I only do this with Lost episodes)and as mentioned before I always give the credit to the original creator so please rest assured since I have your permission credit will be given to you if I ever edit your subs, I wasn't raised to steal others limelight and I know how difficult the subs are to create.

So much obliged good sir, keep up the good work

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rogard
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:37 pm
Contact: Website

Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:47 pm

Funny, I do the same as LeapinLar: I put missing punctuation back in the subtitles. Well, you never stop learning new things. I too would like you to make it clear that you removed those, so that people know why the subtitles are so...weird all of a sudden. :lol:

I looked for universal subtitle guidelines and all I discovered was that each country and each tv station etc. has totally different preferences about that. I guess the same is true for the audience as well.

I am confident that nobody will argue over good sync and proper dialog though.

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scooby007
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Location: Scandalous

sub edits

Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:57 pm

Weird...? :cry: don't be like that :evil: yes yes masters I will make it clear by putting it in the notes :lol:

As before I only do this with Lost&Supernatural, I don't remove everything, mainly just the full stops at the end of every sentence because I find them distracting at times. Example/

She tried to, didn't she? Come on.
We'll go tell Uncle Henry and Auntie Em.

(to this I would change)

She tried to didn't she? Come on
We'll go tell Uncle Henry and Auntie Em

That's not that weird is it? as you said (Rogard) all TV stations have their own prefrences, that is why I'm used to reading this format.

In regards to what LeapinLar said about not being able to tell at times? for these types of subs shouldn't you put the hearing impaired symbol on?

before I go, forgive me if I sound ungratefull and I'v been remiss, THANK YOU guys for all your uploads

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eduo
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:02 am

Ehrm.

In case of doubt proper grammar should take precedence. That means removing full stops at the end of sentences is a horrible, horrible practice.
http://eduo.info/
[url=http://eduo.info/soleol/]OpenSubtitles from your desktop: SolEol for Mac/Windows/Linux[/url]
[url=http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php?showtopic=325&st=0&p=2480&#entry2480]My current episode processing work flow[/url].

LeapinLar
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:04 pm
Location: USA

Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:53 am

scooby007,

As a hearing impaired person, I always look for subs marked with Hearing Impaired symbols first. But not all subs have a version made for HI (as a matter of fact, most don't). So then I use the subs not marked as HI and make do best I can. I want all those subs to have as much help for me as they can, including question marks at the end of sentences if they belong there. Just my 2 cents worth.

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scooby007
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:09 pm

Eduo,

I agree grammar should take precedence, but if you look at my previous post, the example there was taken out of 'wizard of oz' and after the word 'come on' there shouldn't be a full stop, should there? its a continuous sentence. Things like that I remove.

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eduo
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:12 pm

Eduo,

I agree grammar should take precedence, but if you look at my previous post, the example there was taken out of 'wizard of oz' and after the word 'come on' there shouldn't be a full stop, should there? its a continuous sentence. Things like that I remove.
There should be a full stop at the end of both sentences. After the first probably only a comma or an ellipsis, depending on the actual dialogue (although a full stop could be there as well, depending on the pause).

But that's different. Removing full stops for the sake of removing them is wrong. Removing them because they're incorrect is just fixing. Especially if someone decided to put full stops at the end of all sentences.

Sacrificing proper grammar is not justified, to me.
http://eduo.info/
[url=http://eduo.info/soleol/]OpenSubtitles from your desktop: SolEol for Mac/Windows/Linux[/url]
[url=http://forums.plexapp.com/index.php?showtopic=325&st=0&p=2480&#entry2480]My current episode processing work flow[/url].

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scooby007
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:46 pm

Eduo,

that sentence I refer to is continuous yet there is still the full stop. Every time there is a two tier sentence structure each sentence (Line)has a full stop at the end when the character hasn't even finished talking yet. People just put it because it's the end of the line. example

I was walking home from school when.
I saw a truck coming towards me.

Like that, the first sentence doesn't need a stop. I see your point and it's noted but I don't think were on the same page? we're both refering to different things

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