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suadnovic
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:41 pm

Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Thu May 03, 2018 11:56 am

Hi people,
after words of wild-thing at
https://www.opensubtitles.org/en/subtit ... genesis-en
I wish to propouse you new BH stile for subtitle
https://i.imgur.com/PhERcxd.png
The reasons are psychological and practical, I do not have to run long
lines on the screen and I can better concentrate on watching movies

The thing is in developing and some things should be agreed upon,
I mean, certain rules should be adopted, about which I would like you to think about, too.
Here is one example of original and BH processed subtitle

https://www.sendspace.com/file/a7tfm5

abd here are some doubts of mine about rules when the BH procedure is to be carried out.

1) If the line already has 2 rows, and the upper one is only one character of the lower one, then leave it as it is.
2) If line haz just one row, when, I mean, what length should be divided into two lines,
maybe if its length exceeds 25 characters?

3) If line have 2 rows, and upper is less then 10 characters, leave it as it is.

4) In line with 2 rows, if upper row is longer just 1 or 2 characters, leave it as it is.

5) In line with 2 rows, when bottom row is already longer, switch to the upper line
words that can feet without disturb the BH rule.

6) Switch up or down, if necessary, whole words, without hyphenation.

It is difficult to list all the cases, because there are many special situations, but needs of something to go.
opensubtitles.org it's special place, I'm convinced that with this would be even better.

Well, I be glade to hear what people think about. Thank you.

Martin1964
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Thu May 03, 2018 8:30 pm

Interesting idea for sure, but it feels more an esthetic purpose than a functional one. A line auto-break function is available in translating software based on a maximum first line length (standard around 45 character including spaces) but this is not an intelligent system.

Subtitles and lines should be broken at logical points. The ideal line-break will be at a piece of punctuation like a full stop, comma or dash. If the break has to be elsewhere in the sentence, avoid splitting the following parts of speech:
• article and noun (e.g. the + table; a + book)
• preposition and following phrase (e.g. on + the table; in + a way; about + his life)
• conjunction and following phrase/clause (e.g. and + those books; but + I went there)
• pronoun and verb (e.g. he + is; they + will come; it + comes)
• parts of a complex verb (e.g. have + eaten; will + have + been + doing)

However, since the dictates of space within a subtitle are more severe than between subtitles, line breaks may also take place after a verb.
For example:
Incorrect
He said it would increase the
number of shareholders.

Correct
He said it would increase
the number of shareholders.

• Do not break a person’s name or title from within a line.
Incorrect
Bob and Susan
Miller are at the movies.

Correct
Bob and Susan Smythe
are at the movies.

Incorrect
Suzy and Professor
Barker are here.

Correct
Suzy and Professor Barker
are here.

• Do not break a line after a conjunction.
Incorrect
In seconds she arrived, and
he ordered a drink.

Correct
In seconds she arrived,
and he ordered a drink.

• Do not break an auxiliary verb from the word it modifies.

Incorrect
Mom said I could
have gone to the movies.

Correct
Mom said I could have gone
to the movies.

Line breaks within a word are especially disruptive to the reading process and should be avoided. Ideal formatting should therefore compromise between linguistic and geometric considerations but with priority given to linguistic considerations. A good translator keep these in mind while doing the translation.

suadnovic
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Fri May 04, 2018 12:04 am

Thanks for your opinion, and I unfortunetly must say I don't agree with you. Point is on psihological aspect, that I have line beautifully arranged in front of the eyes for quick reading, and let my brain take care of grammar, after all, no one will evaluate my grammar while watching a movie, that's the point.
But there may be little influence and which language is in question, your notes concern english. My suggestion is that you do not have to look at the language rules and strictly respect the BH style. Maybe it's too personal thinking, but I feel extremely pitiable when I watch a movie with a BH-style subtitle.

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SmallBrother
Site Admin
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Location: Somewhere on this globe

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Fri May 04, 2018 11:00 am

Suadnovic, I agree with Martin and disagree with you :) Also from a psychological perspective, the methods Martin describe are better in my opinion.

You say having things 'visually organized' is easier and faster and thus you can concentrate better on the movie. I say having sentences split at grammatically illogical points is much more strain on the brains to process and actually understand the meaning of what is written. With your method you get a small gain in time, because your eyes don't need to travel so much, but a great loss in time, because you need to think what is actually the meaning. It depends on each individual case, the effect may be more or less, but still, I think in general it's like this

For example:

After all this hard work, I am dead
tired and now I need some sleep.


The two lines are almost the same length, in number of characters as well as visually.
Very good, you would say.

But:
Reading the first line, your brain will understand the speaker is dead, while you eyes are traveling to the second line.
But then comes the second line. The speaker is not dead, just very tired. My first understanding was wrong and I am all confused. Panic in my brain. Maybe I have to read again to understand, to be sure. Too late, the subs are out of sight. Etc.
I have been busy with understanding the subs, instead of watching the movie...

[Edit]
This is my opinion and it is general/good practice in Dutch subtitles.
However, I know in other languages other guidelines are sometimes preferred.

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oss
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Contact: Website

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sat May 05, 2018 8:43 pm

I agree with Martin and SmallBrother.

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SmallBrother
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Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sat May 05, 2018 9:31 pm

It's SO NICE when people agree with me.

suadnovic
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sat May 05, 2018 9:54 pm

Example of SmallBrother is a little violently constructed, but
I admit, there are situations when it is impossible to perform BH style, so they should be taken into account in the final processing of the subtitle and not to insist at any cost.
Like
789
01:27:43,595 --> 01:27:45,929
Fuck!
- Kill the fucking sister!

Better looks

789
01:27:43,595 --> 01:27:45,929
Fuck! - Kill the
fucking sister!

bur here is impossible

790
01:27:45,931 --> 01:27:47,764
Kill her!
- No!

However, in each subtitle such situations don't appear so often, and most of the subtitles can be BH processed.

And leave in subtitle line as (and there are many worse examples)

786
01:27:34,462 --> 01:27:36,670
The deal is, you hand over that gun

is a disaster

Much better is

786
01:27:34,462 --> 01:27:36,670
The deal is, you
hand over that gun

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arcchancellor
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Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 6:54 am

No to both examples, suadnovic. It doesn't look better.
I agree with Martin and his explanations and try to handle it in German as well as possible.
"I don't believe in God. I just believe in Billy Wilder" - Fernando Trueba

suadnovic
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 8:59 am

The biggest problem for me is the situations when the upper row is relatively short, and bottom haz just one word, like this

Hoćeš li mi pisati?
- Svakako.

Leave it as it is, or use

Hoćeš li mi
pisati? - Svakako.

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SmallBrother
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Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 10:02 am

Yes, my example was indeed a bit violently constructed (nice wording, btw), but the point was making a point and explaining it.

Hoćeš li mi pisati?
- Svakako.

Leave it as it is, or use

Hoćeš li mi
pisati? - Svakako.

For me that a big big nooooo.

For the same reason: the time gain is marginal versus the loss in time caused by confusion. The dialog hyphen should be a symbol to clarify the dialog. In your second version it COULD be a symbol which is sometimes used for a thinking pause, a contrast in meaning, an answer to your own question, a clarification, etc.. Also this should preferably NOT be used - for the same reason, confusion!

In general: subtitles have one big problem: the limited time and space. Therefore pretty much anything should be done to make life as easy as possible for the reader. Short lines, low CPS, simple wording and construction of sentences, etc. And especially any confusion should be avoided, because I think this costs the most time. For that reason one could (should) choose for example for a line of text which is a bit longer or with a bit higher CPS, rather than having confusion.

Another example is not using a dot after "Mr" and "Mrs". Grammatically this is wrong, but the dot will trigger the brain thinking it s the last word of a sentence, especially if the next word (a name!) starts with a capital:
Yesterday I bumped into Mrs Jones and we went for a drink.
is more clear than
Yesterday I bumped into Mrs. Jones and we went for a drink.
And speaking of violent constructions ;-) look at this, grammatically correct and following your method of line breaks:
Yesterday I bumped into Mrs.
Jones and we went for a drink.

Confusion, confusion...
I would write:
Yesterday I bumped into Mrs Jones
and we went for a drink.


Your other example:
The deal is, you hand over that gun
What is wrong with having it on one line? 35 characters is definitely not too much. The left-right work for your eyes is very little. Having it split over two lines is interfering unnecessarily with the movie picture and you cause yourself trouble with 'where to split'. But if you really want, then I would do this:
The deal is,
you hand over that gun

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Mazrim Taim
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:04 am

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 10:04 am

suadnovic wrote:The biggest problem for me is the situations when the upper row is relatively short, and bottom haz just one word, like this

Hoćeš li mi pisati?
- Svakako.

Leave it as it is, or use

Hoćeš li mi
pisati? - Svakako.


Leave it as it is. Two different speakers? Always use two lines, starting the second line with -
Will you write me?
- Surely.


Even if it's as short as this:
Will you?
- Yes.
Image

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Mazrim Taim
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:04 am

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 10:11 am

SmallBrother wrote:(...) speaking of violent constructions ;-) look at this, grammatically correct and following your method of line breaks:
Yesterday I bumped into Mrs.
Jones and we went for a drink.

Confusion, confusion...
I would write:
Yesterday I bumped into Mrs Jones
and we went for a drink.


You are so dead
right about this.


Or should it be:
You are so dead right
about this.
Last edited by Mazrim Taim on Sun May 06, 2018 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

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Mazrim Taim
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:04 am

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 11:16 am

While we're on the subject of 'refitting' lines... there's one thing that I always find very annoying:
A short line that you can easily read, followed by a long line that's gone before you've had the chance to read it.

Take a look at lines 57 and 58.
Image


A useful feature would be a way to automate the process of combining such lines.
Subtitle Edit gets this right sometimes ("merge short lines"), but in most cases human decision making is required. Humans are better at deciding what can be combined and what should be left alone.
Image


A program can do the combining for you ("merge with line..."), but will just follow programmed rules for deciding line length.
It doesn't take readability into account, which can cause confusion for the reader. So, subtle shifting of words becomes necessary.
Image


It sure would be nice if, one day, a program would be able to see text the same way a human being does, rather than as a series of words to be treated mathematically.
Image

suadnovic
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:41 pm

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 2:32 pm

@SmallBrother
Well, I agree with you, but you look at subtitle in od fashion way and strictly grammatical, which isn't point. Then, in serban language (subtite), I use Gdin and gdin for Mr. and mr., without missundersanding, ... rather then - for pause in dialog, so there is no confusion, and in serbian is correct Dr and dr, not Dr. and dr. so there is also no confusion.
In player

Hoćeš li mi
pisati? - Svakako.

is well symmetrically arranged on screen, easy seen and read as group, and you watch movie and can figurate from acting what - means even in your doubts. That's the point, I'm looking for new BH style for subtitle, fully aware that it is not (only) grammatically correct, but, for me, there are many psychological advantages.
I'm not a miracle from a man, I repeat, I feel extremely pleased when I watch a movie with such a subtitle, and not just me, as I can see from PM I receive. It suits someone, does not suit someone (like HI), and the right criterion would be in addition to the regular have also BH version of the subtitle, to see how many of them will be downloaded. That's whole point. Why not try as experiment? I do not see that a site can be harmed by it. On the contrary... (I do not dare to finish my thought, because, to my sorrow, I do not feel the sympathy of the administration for the proposal). But my God, life is going on.
@Mazrim Taim
Most important is have tool for easy and quickly BH processing, I cray at many places
https://www.techsupportforum.com/forums ... 27622.html
I send similar messege to SubtitleEdit team.
And it is very clear that the final treatment of the subtitle must be manual.

Martin1964
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Sugestion about new BH style for subtitles

Sun May 06, 2018 10:43 pm

suadnovic started this topic for the new BH style for subtitles with this advantage:

The reasons are psychological and practical, I do not have to run long
lines on the screen and I can better concentrate on watching movies.

Some responses gave good and clear reasons why this is not favorable. There is no real good reason why a line should break after e.g. 25 characters, this is certainly not an international standard.
I have no knowledge of the Serbian language or subtitles but it's common the make the breaks not according the many examples I gave or given by SmallBrother?
Are there any papers or surveys stating the suggested new BH style has an advantage, so not just a PM you received?

Maybe you/we can make a poll under Serbian viewers first whether they can indicate their preferred subtitle?
I'm not an admin on OS, but I can imagine doing an experiment would need more back-up first and a working tool.

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