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hector
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Original language in the first place

Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:25 pm

This is a result from frustration and my difficulty to understand why do people behave this way. I'll try to explain...

I was looking for English subtitles for the film "Giving it up". This is just an example. Then I find that there is one subtitle available
but it is Dutch. I can't understand why do people behave like this. The person who generously made this subtitle did understand
the original text unless he took a Dutch dubbing which I doubt. Because translating implies that you have the original text from which you are translating. Then, if this person had the original text, why on Earth didn't he upload it? It takes no extra work. Well, a little bit, but this is nothing compared to the effort to get the meaning when you don't quite understand the spoken language.

This is not the first time I find this. People take an English film and write the translation to Dutch or Romanian or Polish or whatever. Writing the original takes only some more time but it means a great benefit because then it is easier to write translations. The same can be applied to other languages.

When you read a book you don't take the book and start to read in page 50. You usually read the chapters in order. When you build a house you don't start by making the roof. You start making the basement. This is the same.

So, my request here is for people to write the transcription first (in original language) and then make translations.

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SmallBrother
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Re: Original language in the first place

Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:23 pm

Yes, the world is a mysterious place. But maybe I can explain something.

First of all, we don't know what happened. Maybe English subs existed, but they were deleted, for whatever reason. Maybe the translator thought about it creating English subs first, but didn't feel capable enough to write correct English.

But mostly, I don't think writing original subs "takes only some more time". Let's say an average movie is 900 time units. Let's say on average every time unit takes 10 seconds to write, plus some extra time for a typo and one or two mouse clicks, altogether 15 seconds. 900 x 15 seconds = almost 4 hours. Four hours EXTRA. To be honest, I can imagine people not doing that.

You cannot build a roof without walls, that's technically impossible.
But you can build a house without first making a plan on paper.

However, I do agree it would be nice.
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hector
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Re: Original language in the first place

Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:08 am

Yes, I guess it's four hours more work. But I think the hard part is already done, which is understanding the text. I think writing it down means just a little more work compared to the great benefit that it would bring.

Take for instance the following situation. Somebody takes a film in English and writes Dutch subtitles. Then somebody else writes Chinese subtitles, then Polish, Romanian, Hungarian and so on. All these people are repeating the same work which is transcribing the English text (or only understanding it since they don't write it down). All these people write their translations taking as source some text which nobody has taken the time to write down (sorry for my English, I think you get the idea). So they are all doing the same work again and again. I don't think this is a good way to do things. I guess it's all about SHARING your work.

Somebody could say that you can take the Dutch translation and write Chinese if you speak those two languages. But I don't think doing a translation from a translation is a good idea. You should have access to the original script. This would be like building a house without plans. You can do it? Sure. But I don't think it is a good practice.

So, please, whenever you do a translation submit the original script as well if it does not exist.

Martin1964
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Re: Original language in the first place

Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:06 am

We do not know the specific situation, but I can produce a raw timestamp on a video file (let's say an English one) automatically and use my ears to translate into Dutch. This is called an translation "on audio" and takes a lot of time.

If I want to make an English version (and I did that also) you do not make an translation but a transcript. This means the spoken words a literally typed down, regardless timings, merge lines etc. Each spoken sense will have their own line. Reason is that grammar per language is different and each translator will merge lines depending on the grammar of the language and used words for the translation. An English expression can be very short, while in your language you need more characters or the other way around.

It's more work then you expect. Let's assume you have an English video. First making a transcript per sentence and then doing the merge (incl. CPS and other technical stuff) for your desired language. It's a whole different ballgame. I understand the wish for an original language version, but it takes so much more time. From an original language version, I normally have 30% less of the original sentences to produce a good Dutch version.

Making from scratch a transcript will take (for 45 minutes TV series) at least ten hours if there are not too much dialects or mumbling around. If that transcript is done, you are going to do your own language version. As you are now going to merge lines, compress long lines (CPS) and adjust timings etc. it will take another 10 hours. I can imagine most translators are not willing to do that.

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hector
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Re: Original language in the first place

Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:34 pm

OK. Now I understand why it is done so. I guess it is more work than I thought.

But I still think it would be easier to do translations on script instead of translations on audio. The key point is that we should share work and avoid repeating work unnecessarily.

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SmallBrother
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Re: Original language in the first place

Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:19 pm

My 'calculation' was about solely writing the text. So yes - not four hours, but AT LEAST four hours extra work.

Still, you are totally right, the same job is done multiple times. And I appreciate and agree with your idea about sharing, already if only for the sake of not wasting time. So yes, if somebody ever made a transcription before doing a translation and all the technical work, it should not be lost.

But it made me think, and it reminded me of other discussions on the forum and some internal discussion we had about subs in the original language - should they be verbatim or not? Now this is extended: should verbatim transcriptions be according to subtitling rules or not?

Think about it: somebody made a transcription, without any regards to line length, CPS, synch, or stuff like that. Those files could very well be totally useless as subtitles, but very valuable for your cause. Now what to do? Upload it - some admin will review it, consider it crap as subtitle and delete it. Or don't upload - work lost.

I think we have another 'flag' coming up ;-)
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hector
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Re: Original language in the first place

Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:00 am

I'm anxious.

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SmallBrother
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Re: Original language in the first place

Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:23 am

Let me rephrase that:
I think we have the desire for another 'flag' coming up ;-)
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hector
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Re: Original language in the first place

Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:14 pm

Let me repeat myself: I'm still anxious :)

watdafox
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Re: Original language in the first place

Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:05 pm

You know, I see tons of people sharing content they subtitled and hardcoded on private torrents, and they refuse to provide source file. Mysterious place indeed.

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hector
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Re: Original language in the first place

Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:25 pm

By "hardcoded" you mean embedded in the video as image? A silly thing to do, I think.

Anyway human behaviour is a mystery. Sometimes I try to understand people but basically I desisted long time ago.

But there is one rule that is almost universal. What we Spaniards call "la ley del embudo" (the funnel law) which basically reads: "the wide end for me, the narrow end for everybody else" or "sharing is good only when I get the profit"

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SmallBrother
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Re: Original language in the first place

Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:56 am

That's why we have the "Thanks" button ;-)
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phlcharmat
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Re: Original language in the first place

Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:51 am

Can anybody tell why "verbatim transcripts" are generally not available?
Apart from the following reasons, is there any other?
1) Their lines are often much longer than "edited" ones, and they would sometimes cover too much of the screen;
2) It would be hard to read them as fast as actors say them;
3) Meaning prevails over expression.

Anyway, when it comes to make a translation, there is no way to get a faithful one from an "edited" transcript of the original text.

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SmallBrother
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Re: Original language in the first place

Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:26 pm

Those are pretty much the reasons. Verbatim transcripts would (most probably) not be usable as subtitles.
As for #3, meaning does not prevail over expression, but to stay within reasonable limits of line length and maximum reading speed (CPS, Characters Per Second), the subtitler must often rewrite the verbatim text into something shorter, the socalled 'compression'.
Anyway, when it comes to make a translation, there is no way to get a faithful one from an "edited" transcript of the original text.
You are totally right. That's why translations should not be made from just a compressed subtitle, but always with the video next to it. Any subtitle source file is just a little help.
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