disabled subs

[2Hb]

Hi,

I have been uploading over 60 subs since last month. Then I noticed that more than half of my subs were disabled by one of admins a couple of days ago without telling me any reason. I asked another admin, oss, who seems to be most active here, and I was told to ask the admin responsible for it, that is M3TAL_L0RD. I already sent this admin and have waited the response in vain. So here I am.

M3TAL_L0RD disabled my 38 subs just within 10 minutes. Whatever the reason it is, I do not think anyone can check a sub in such short period of time. Since M3TAL_L0RD is not responding and I have no idea what to do next, may I ask what is happening? What I asked M3TAL_L0RD is to tell me the reason to have disabled more than half of my subs. 30 subs are still available. There got to be a good reason why some are disabled while others are not. I have made them in a same manner. I want to know why. Tell me the reason, and I will fix it.

Off the topic, some of my subs have been misplaced in wrong season:episode. I already reported all of them (except Transporter: the Series), issuing correction in English, but most of them seem to be ignored. Please take care of them soon, too.

Regards,

2Hb

[oss]

lets wait for answer from METAL LORD, I believe he got reason why he did it.

[jcdr]

I believe M3TAL_LORD disabled these subs because they were duplicates of already uploaded subtitles.

[oss]

I disabled MetalLord admin privileges, he was unable to answer here and to others two mails I sent him. For the disabled subtitles, also I believe, they was disabled, because of duplicates.
I enabled first two:
http://www.opensubtitles.org/en/subtitl ... e-fault-en
http://www.opensubtitles.org/en/subtitl ... um-opus-en

one can see, we got uploaded subtitles already for those parts, I didnt tried others, but I believe, it will be same.

[2Hb]

Okay, so the question is what is duplicate?
I do not think any of my subs is duplicate.

The reason why I have created my own sub and make them open here is because I have not been satisfied with the creators popular around here.

They are very quick. I agree. But! Based on my experience, even they claim "synced and corrected by xxx" they are not.
As for sync, there have been always out of sync parts, which damage dialogs. Slight off sync can do harm. For example, when an actor try to say "Yes" to a question and the line is shown 0.5 second ahead, that ruins the scene. Because we can predict what he is trying to say. Out of sync 0.5 behind is the same thing. We already heard what he said and could not understand what he said by reading the line. We use a sub because 1) we are hearing disabled, and/or 2) we are not native English users. Either way, showing lines later does not make any sense. Though they claim "synced," to my eyes, they are not actually synced. Maybe they are roughly synced, maybe by using syncing function with some software, but not line by line. I assure you I sync all the lines one by one, within 0.1 second precision. I double check if my sub is perfectly synced even it takes too long time and makes my sub really behind other uploaders. Because I believe, like I do, some of users might well choose better synced subs.

As for correction, my experience is the same as in syncing. There have been missing lines and unnecessary lines in other uploaders. Which suggests, together with above mentioned sync problem, those creators actually do not correct them at all, or at least they do not watch all throughout an episode. They seem just CC converting into a time stamped srt file, that is all. Because, I sometimes see that missing lines are apparent in non-HI subs because of mis-processing a line like "SPEAKER: Hi." being totally cut. This won't happen unless they use automatic error correct functions of some software. In my subs, this won't happen, because I create every line by directly listening to what actors say. No line will be missed if they said it. No line will be added unless they said it or moved their mouth like they said at least. Besides, in others' subs, there have been wrong words which must be mistakenly heard of. They should not be there if they really corrected (perfectly).

Although, I am a human. So I am not 100% sure that my subs are free of error. That way, I do not put "synced and corrected" kind of note on my subs, especially "corrected" part. But I am more than 100% sure that my subs are superior in quality to other subs, which I believe is most valuable of all. If you are speed freak, then grab some not accurate subs way earlier posted. Mine takes really time to create.

There are lots to discuss in details about both sync and correction. Say, I use numbers as many as can instead of typing them out like "one two three," but I want my discussion to be short and simple. I do not go into the details now. I think this is enough to conclude that my subs are not just duplicate of others. If not, why does speed proceeds quality? Why not call you opensubtitles.org but closedandonlythequickestsubtitles.org? Open means open, right?

I do not deny others work. They should stay there. Most appreciate them. They do and I know that. But even if there is only very few who appreciate my work, why should you disable their right to enjoy my work? Besides, I do not name my subs as conventional manner. Most player software dare to avoid my subs and choose other works, I believe. There should be little confusion on users side.

[jcdr]

2Hb, thanks for this clarification.

There are dozens of TV series episodes coming up every day, and generally, the versions you will find uploaded on subtitle sites, correspond to the rip of the captioning from the satellite TV channels. OCR corrections are made, and syncs are adjusted to fit the various releases. Indeed this takes a lot of time, and as the subfans working on them and uploading them do this as a free hobby, we do all greatly appreciate their work and dedication.

I have checked three of your subs disabled by M3TAL_LORD. I appreciate that sync might be more accurate that the ones released by the TV channels, but these subs now have many lines which are far too long (sometimes longer than 100 charaters per line), so they are hardly usable. Ideally the lines should not be longer than 40/42 characters per line, with a maximum of two lines per page.

So I don't think that re-activating these subs would be the right thing to do. May I suggest that you re-upload a corrected version of your subs?

[2Hb]

Oh, I expected this response from one of you... that my subs "have many lines which are far too long (sometimes longer than 100 characters per line), so they are hardly usable." and that "Ideally the lines should not be longer than 40/42 characters per line, with a maximum of two lines per page."

Actually, this is one of the greatest reasons why I started to create my own subs. I have been always annoyed when the lines so quickly change within a second. There is little time to read it. Even if you limit the character per line or per second, if the line is shown within a short period of time, it is quite exhausting to read such lines within a certain amount of time. Mine does not. Because a line has relatively longer display time. Even the number of characters in a line or two is more, there still is a room to read it all through for an ordinary person. There is a chance you can still catch up if you missed earlier part of a line. If you use short cut versions, you have no choice but to leave the line unclear or you have to rewind a bit and re-watch the part again. In fact, those 40/42 subs are so meticulously cut into shorter lines that sometimes the cut point does not match where there really is the point between the words. That is, as you might know, really exhausting to synchronize... because they are not synchronized! For one, I have been really exhausted of using such subs. Thus mine.

I know, why 40/42 something rule has been made, for some people complain they have too narrow area to display such longer lines. I know. I read some discussions here. But I am talking about a "choice" here. I am not asking other versions than mine to be removed or disabled. I am just asking to make my subs stay as well as others. Because, otherwise users have no choice but to choose just only one version of 40/42 compliant subs. That is tragedy, in my opinion. I do not deny others to choose what they want.

Software-wise, longer lines like mine would not be a problem at all. MPC-HC (Media Player Classic - Home Cinema coupled with ffdshow) is able to display my subs very efficiently, without having any trouble at all. A longer line is split into two lines and words are evenly separated. When you choose font size properly, which I choose 31, the lines of my subs are displayed within two lines per a line, meaning one segment of a sub. I double check if all lines are displayed less than three lines. If a line is split into three lines by my setting, I cut the segment into two and make sure they are less than three lines. (You now know why I use 1, 2, 3 instead of one, two, three, right? Yes, space, people!) Also, most of the lines are only one line except dialogs. This is because two lines hide/overlap picture area, thus damaging some part of the picture. I want to avoid this. If you create a sub with only one line per segment like me, and if a segment is short, there is no need to show it *forcefully* with two lines. Because we have more space horizontally. Why not use it? Software-wise, one line can be displayed as two lines, but two lines cannot be displayed as one line even if it is short and no matter how you change the settings. If you have narrower space? Sorry, I am not making my subs to everyone. But that could not be a reason to exclude my subs, right?

Besides, pause in a line has meaning as well as end of a sentence. Basically split should be made on such pause and at the end of the sentence. When you split lines at pause/end of sentence, then each segment or cluster is easy to understand. When you break it in the way, the meaning of separated cluster is hard to understand, especially for non-English users. My point here is that I more focused on how long a cluster is said rather than how many characters the cluster has in it. This is especially true when you think some very quick talkers like Doctor Spencer Reid in mind. If you stick to the 40/42 rule, his lines must be split into very short period of time and no one can optically catch the line. Rather, I would break the rule and make a line longer and also make some additional time to catch up by summing up the gap times.

At any point, I do not think there is a reason to exclude my subs. Is there any harmful thing? What I can understand from your opinion is that my subs do not follow conservative rule of making subs. I think there can be another way of making subs, considering those conventional subs have some serious problems above mentioned.

At any case, I cannot provide this kind of subs unless I actually watch a show and enjoy making a sub for it. Because I am really making it by watching. I am no power uploader. Even if you allow my subs to stay, the effect is quite limited, I think.

And to respond to your request: "May I suggest that you re-upload a corrected version of your subs?"
Those are the corrected version of mine. So there is no corrected version of them.
If you do not take them as corrected, there would be no re-upload.
To me, either you re-activate already uploaded my subs or I do no update at all.
Because, as I explained, if what you call "correction" is made on my subs, there is less difference between mine and others. Then, why is it allowed to stay?

Big difference, no acceptance. Little difference, acceptance. Isn't is contradiction as duplicate?

[EDIT] Three posts joined to one.

[SimplyTheBOSS]

I agree with what jcdr said, those kinds of lines are much too long. That 40/42 (or maybe 40/46) is a pretty good "rule", In some rare exceptions the line length can be 50 characters.
Some says that maximum line length should be even shorter:
https://universalsubtitles.tenderapp.co ... s-per-line

Have you thought about that If every user uploads their own "best" version from each subtitle the site would be really chaotic mess.

[oss]

I agree, there should be some maximum (42 chars) per line. The problem is, there are many players, which doesn't handle 100 chars per line well, so better to see "shortened" version, then version, where I can read just the middle of sentences. Also, when are 100 chars per line, and you got quite big font, sometimes it happens the subtitles appear (in supported players) all over the screen and thats not cool to.

2Hb, it is not about we not appreciate your work. We just have some different rules than you do.

[2Hb]

Who are "we?" I was one of your users once and I am now.
Like I explained, the reason why I started making my own is because already existing subs just suck to me.
I am not saying I do not appreciate their works. They just do not fit to me. It is the same thing that you are saying "it is not about we not appreciate your work."

And the reasons why they suck I already explained them. You did not respond to these points. You just stick with long-line negativity theory. That is all.
I admit, that my subs have long lines. And I already explained why they are.

What you are saying is that majority has absolute, exclusive priority to minority. What I am saying is let minority have their chance, opportunity, a choice. Is there any problem to give them a choice? I am not telling the majority also to use mine or not to use yours. You did not respond to this point either.

As for softwares, what you said I already explained in my post. I knew. It is also a matter of majority and minority. I am not saying everyone should use MPC(-HC) with ffdshow. I am just saying that for those who use MPC do not have such problem and I am one of them. Let's give those people a choice to use a different version. Because for them longer lines won't matter. You are just saying those who do not use MPC are not able to benefit from using mine. I do not deny that. But what is the problem about it? Why is it so important to ban mine while by doing so, some, even they are minority, suffer? I do not get it.
You also did not explain the demerits of short lines that I already pointed out. In short, shorter lines 1) have less display time per word, 2) have frequent switch which results in a) fatigue and b) asynchronization between sound and subs, 3) have forced two lines display of shorter line. All of which my subs clear up.
And this is new: there are sub software which make long lines into short lines. Why don't you use them? The reverse, from shorter lines into longer lines is quite difficult to my experience. It has to be done by hand. This is also where I see long line version has superiority to short line version.

You set a rule. That is Okay. But that rule does not work for certain people, like me. I really have felt painful with that rule. You just do not listen to those people. I do not think you have tried to understand different opinions, although you have been very patient and tried to reach out. Why do you force to follow the rules to all the people? Why do you not allow different people to have different rule, a choice? I repeat, I am not saying others should admit and follow my rules. I am just saying let us have a different, alternative, non-exclusive set of rules for who prefer them to the current rules. Why is it so hard to accept?

Most importantly, where is the rule stated? I have not seen such short-line rule anywhere when I upload. Why you "make up" such rule after things happen? If there is, shouldn't you clearly state your rules of format so that every creator notice before their upload or even afterward? I think your bringing up that rule this after is quite arbitrary, don't you think?

key point: a choice, an opportunity

[jcdr]

2Hb, I have read the Addic7ed recommendations on the link you PM me (http://addic7edsubs.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html), I must say I am rather surprised.

Two examples of one of your subs, with VLC player/ normal font size. Indeed it is even worse if a big font size is selected.
The results are the same on my TV with a WD TV Live interface, with no possibility to change font/size.

Subtitle example 1.png

Subtitle example 2.png

But although the subs are likely not to work for most of the users, I think we understand your point of view: you want users to be given the choice, if they prefer long lines as you do.

The problem I see is that users downloading subtitles have no way to tell beforehand, whether the subtitle format is suitable for their player or not. Maybe a note could be added in the comment part for those subs, mentioning the long lines.

Scooby, smallbrother, you opinion on this? Anyway, final word belongs to oss, he is the one to set the rules about subtitles and formatting on opensubtitles.org —as Addic7ed did for theirs.

P.S.: I totally disagree with Addic7ed rule #15: diacritics are part of the English language, see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_te ... ical_marks.
I also disagree with rule #10, typewriters era is long gone, EM dashes have been around for some time now to replace double hyphens. Proper punctuation rules can be followed.

[scooby007]

Scooby, smallbrother, you opinion on this?

I agree with you, jc. I already gave my opinion on this a few days ago, that a choice should be given as long as there is something written in the notes as to what is different about those subtitles. Basically what you just said above, but STB threw a fit in his personal email to me and came down on me like a ton of bricks. As to not offend the new "site admin", and in my fear, I ended up deleting my post. 2hb says he adjusts the timing of the subtitles so they stay on screen longer for those that can't read fast enough, so this is a good thing for those that are slow at reading, I guess. To be honest, I agree and understand with both points of view, but I'm not really passionate or more lenient towards one side over the other.

PS: Just to be clear, I personally prefer the subtitles as they are.

[SimplyTheBOSS]

This could cause that we get reports about an incompatible subtitles
One wise man once said: "We want the page to be simple with only a few releases per page"

PS.Scooby is hiding behind my back as usual, I will ban hime later today

[jcdr]

I suddenly realize: 2Hb, http://addic7edsubs.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html is actually your blog, correct? Is it related to Addic7ed?

[SmallBrother]

Interesting discussion...

First of all, since this topic started over subs being deleted. My opinion is that every disabled sub should get a reason WHY it is deleted. Firstly, to avoid speculative discussions, but mostly because besides dealing with subtitle files, we are also dealing with people. People who spend time, sometimes a LOT of time in creating something useful which they want to share with the rest of the world. I think generally this is a beautiful concept and such behavior should be encouraged.

In this case, it seems like we assume(d) 'duplicates' as reason for deletion, but I can hardly imagine. In the first example of oss, I see indeed subs already existing for ~.HDTV.x264-LOL, but I think that does not make any following subs for that same release automatically a 'duplicate' and definately not automatically 'unwanted'. Ironically, I also see subs for the release ~.480p.HDTV.x264-mSD, which are only 0,001s difference with the HDTV.x264-LOL release. THAT, I would say, is a duplicate and unnecessary.

Now the discussion evolved to the question if long lines are okay or not.

I definately see the rule of 40 chars/line (or whatever the number is) as very useful. For technical reasons, but also to keep the eye more centered, instead of traveling all the way from left to right and being away from what is happening on the screen. I wouldn't be too strict on that rule (in Dutch subtitles 50 chars is still 'accepted') but 100 chars on one line makes the subs much less 'standard' and in that sense of 'less quality'. And in my personal opinion less 'nice' for the eye (in case the player doesn't deal with them well). This rule is not "just suddenly made up" by us, it is something pretty much accepted and known. But sure, why not question those 'rules'. And I agree with 2Hb that maybe we should have subtitling rules, or at least guidelines, written somewhere on this forum. I also see the point 2Hb is making, for users to have a choice.

I understand what 2Hb is saying, but I see only little advantage in having long lines. Because if there is enough time, I think short lines are convenient enough. If there is not enough time, also long lines will be a problem, although I do understand the slight positive effect in such cases. But I wonder if it's worth the price. When there is not enough time, there is a problem anyway, and the subtitler has to compromise, one way or another. Long lines is 'bad', skipping parts or changing the meaning or anything like that is bad too. We can only pray for people not talking so much

Going blind and wild on (only) this rule of chars/line wouldn't be right. I have run some subs through the error feature of Subtitle Workshop and see NO errors, but still they were awful. Correct timings, as described by 2Hb, and have all spoken text translated is very important too, but can only be noticed if those subs are actually used to watch a movie. Making correct timings is about as time consuming as making the actual translation. I agree with 2Hb that if subs with bad timings or missing parts may stay, why not leave subs with 100 chars/line as well. It doesn't make sense to delete only those, just because it's easier to notice.

But jcdr maks a very valid point too: it definately should be mentioned as comment if long lines are being used. When it is about offering users a choice, at least they should know what is the choice.

I really appreciate 2Hb's work, I mean making subs with fine-tuned timings, instead of the fast power-stuff which I see a lot. And I totally dig what 2Hb is saying about credits saying "checked by blabla" and after using the subs you wonder what has been checked. Spell check? CTRL+I in SW? I wouldn't like to loose the work of 2Hb, just because the lines are long and be stuck with 'perfect' subs, which are actually not so perfect.

So, for us: I would say to keep the subs of 2Hb (enable them), but definately with a clear note that long lines are used.

And for 2Hb: Still I wonder why not break a line of 100 chars into two lines of 50? It will maybe make that minority a bit larger, without loosing too much. And extreme cases, like line #164 in this sub has 123 chars in almost 7 seconds. I'm pretty sure this can be split somewhere conveniently, without upsetting the reader. And why not add in the comment as well that timings are fine-tuned, one by one?

That was my SmallOpinion. The large one will come in 2014