disabled subs

[SimplyTheBOSS]

So, for us: I would say to keep the subs of 2Hb (enable them), but definately with a clear note that long lines are used.

I disagree, like jcdr and OS has already said too long lines are not compatible with all the players. Have you noticed that he already has his own "website" for these subtitles?

[oss]

I will make it simple, lets vote I am not strictly not against these subtitles, if there are more positives than negatives. But when I worked long time ago in restaurant, there was rule, one unhappy customer is more than 10 happy...

If the subtitles (and preferably also if possible in the beginning of subtitle itself) is written it is "long line" subtitles, why not...I just hope, I dont have to make another icon for "long line subtitles"

Also I agree, there would be beneficial to have our rules about subtitles on website. Anybody ?

[SimplyTheBOSS]

I'm against these "long line" subtitles. I've heard complaints of too long lines but I've never heard complaints about too short lines.

[SmallBrother]

I disagree, like jcdr and OS has already said too long lines are not compatible with all the players.

This night I woke up, headache like the Himalaya, sweating like the Niagara Falls, thinking of this Forgot to say that in my post. I have to agree with STB on this and it's an important one. I prefer an email with utf-8 text instead of a docx attachment and an mp3 player that doesn't need specific software. I also prefer subs which can be use on any decent player, instead of just one specific one.

I just hope, I don't have to make another icon for "long line subtitles"

Thought of that one too. It would have to be a icon of 16x10,000 pixels

I am not so sure about the long lines (in general). But I definately like subs being fine-tuned on timings. So I think for me the vote is a bit off context and too general. Maybe I am against long lines, but I am for these specific subs of 2Hb. Problem...

And what about subs which have one line a second too soon and the next line a second too late?

About long lines, here's an example of subs which are not quite according to the rules:
http://www.opensubtitles.org/en/subtitl ... -akunin-nl
but i think they should stay, because it's been hard work of a person, for a rare movie, with no other subs available. Only nine downloads in a few weeks, but that's nine happy people.

Also I agree, there would be beneficial to have our rules about subtitles on website. Anybody ?

In the Dutch section there is. But apparently rules (or rather generally accepted guidelines) are slightly different for english.

[2Hb]

Um... I have been out of this for... what, since my last post. I thought I should have had a moment to cool me down. During the period, I only made one sub for myself and some of you here.
Now, I come back, just surprised to know how things are going to change.
Honestly, I have never imagined such both positive and negative feedback, especially positive one. I am so glad that even only a few people understand or try to understand my point.

That being said, and I see voting for/against long line is undergoing, I have to say that it is not only a matter of long/short lines. Like I said, I understand both long lines and short lines have pros and cons. I think we all agree on that to some extent, regardless of preference. My point is not simple long or short line preference. That is just a part of the problems. I also discussed missing/unnecessary words/lines and off-sync. In fact, off-sync/on-sync is the most important part of the problems in my view. You should not ignore these points either. Maybe some of you think long line problem is most notable and want to exclude my subs only because they have long lines. I think the way the discussion/voting has been going is not right, because it only focuses on one point, which is not necessarily decisive. If it is, the reason needs to be explained. I still do not see why long line is so problematic.
To me, the line SmallBrother pointed out looks like this in MPC.


It is just fine to me. Let me explain once again. It is better to let MPC handle a long line, rather than to break it into two lines by hand beforehand. If the line is already two lines, and the setting is wrong, the two lines maybe displayed as as many as four lines at most in worst case. But when there is no break in the lines, that is one line, the worst case scenario can be avoided. Look at the differences below.


The four lines one is where there is a break, each making two lines. The three lines one is the one without break. The latter only needs three lines. Please note that all the setting except a break code in the srt file (or none) is the same including MPC + ffdshow setting when I took the shots. There is absolutely no need to break a line more even if it is too long. Of course, in extreme case, I will break it into two different parts (not lines) and I have done so far. Let just a software handle with it.
Speaking of software, jcdr showed us with his examples that VLC is not good at handling long lines. I totally agree. It seems it lacks a very neat function to evenly break a line, smart-wrapping available in ffdshow. That is why I do not use VLC in the first place. I did install it and once in a while update it. But I decided not to use it after I came to know its subtitle setting is quite poor. It has only five level of font size! Whereas you can set whatever font size in ffdshow (MPC). Even so, you may be a Linux/Mac user and have no choice to choose MPC. I am not saying to switch your OS or software. I am just saying, for some MPC users, long line is not a problem at all. That's it. No matter how you show me your environment, I see no slight inconvenience in my setting. (Yes, I know this argument is totally mutual.)
Most importantly, I agree that I should make a note of long line in my subs, if it helps users. I thought uploader names are enough to make difference. I mean, I am a newbie uploader here, while my "competitors" have had their great fame here over years. When users use web I/F, they would know who uploaded the sub they are going to get. When using a software like SMPlayer (which I tested), they would also be noticed who the uploader is in a dialog and they can choose by name. So, I thought as long as uploader name is clear, it won't be a problem. Users over a time, would come to know I, 2Hb, make long lines, which is not good for some of them. Then they avoid my subs from the next time. That is what I thought. Now, I would not ask you to make a long line icon or checkbox to indicate it. If my comment only suffices, I am more than glad to make that comment on each sub. I will do from now and do to all the ones already uploaded.

I think I have responded almost everything important you guys mentioned, but let me stop here and read them one more time so as nothing to be missed.

to: SimplyTheBOSS
You are saying that once the line rule is changed, there would be many "best" versions and chaotic. I claim there is no one "best" version for everyone. You also said you have never heard of complaints about short lines. Now you have, right? I have a complaint about it. If I have, maybe some other, even a few, have as well. Or maybe they never imagined they could complain at all!
And yes, that is my own subtitle blog. Everyone can download from there too. But does that mean my subs should be excluded from here? If OS.org has a rule that a sub cannot be public elsewhere once it is uploaded here, then your idea is logical, I think. Anyway, that blog is just my backup in case, in addition to local. It would go private at any time.

to: jcdr
Thanks for reading all of my rules.
Rule #15 is rather an ASCII compliant rule. It is also to save the file not in UTF-8 encoding. Thus I do not use any character like music note or that sort. Everything in my subs must be either [A-Za-z0-9!@#$%&*()-+=;:'",.?/<>\[\]]. Once I allow one new code that is not in ASCII, then I have to allow others as well. I cannot bend this rule even English allows. For the same reason that I solely rely on ASCII, I do not use EM dash, thus rule #10. If you do not like them and still want to use my subs, please just replace them with your spells and codes of choice. (Yes, I am quite old-school in this.)

to: SmallBrother
I personally do not care when my eyes move from left end to right end, following one long line. But when you do and still might want to use my subs, then I suggest you to set a larger number in Left-right margins in [Text subtitles]<-[Text]<-[Subtitles] in ffdshow setting. That way, you can keep certain blank area on both sides to centralize the line. I set 20 in the setting so a very long line fits in two lines with one auto-break (smart-wrapping).
I got your point that having enough time makes long line version less meaningful than short line one. But, like I said, even the number of characters per second is the same, short version inevitably involves split in a sentence. In my experiences, the splits are sometimes bad in terms of understanding, especially non-native English users. If there is a slight pause, that is okay, but that pause of course does not always happen, unfortunately. Even so, if we stick with short line rule, we have to break the line at some point. That is one of the big problems I think in short line version. It is not simple time calculation issue. And yes, long line itself is bad for subtitle(r). As for that, all we can do is just pray.
I did not want to note fine-tuning, because I thought that would make me saying 'hey, other subs are not fine-tuning! Use mine, instead!' As much as I want to say it, I also respect others work. I just wanted and want to let users choose whatever they like in their plain sight. That is why I did not and will not note 'corrected by' part, though I repeatedly check all the words. Also that is why I do not put my credit or anything in it. I even would like to upload as anonymous, in fact I used to, but ads and stuffs are getting kind of nagging. So, what the h*** and here I am.

I do not respond to those parts favorable to my opinions, because it is too obvious to me. But I am more than pleased to know that you guys agree with me on them. Please know that I am not ignoring your supports.

Here is really most important thing to say from me.
I am enjoying the shows of which I am making subs. Otherwise I dare not make it. All the subs I have made, I have also enjoyed watching the shows with my subs as much as I have made effort of making them. I will not make any other show which I do not enjoy watching. My subs are truly fun-fan subs! For one, in Fringe subs, I decoded every and each "glyph," which as a whole make a meaningful word for each episode, which I believe a fan should have known. In a recent episode of American Dad, I decoded "Sdrawkcab" language into English, which no other sub does, I believe. This is just few examples of what I have done in my subs, not to mention I try my best not to use dialog style (if appropriate) to avoid mini-spoiler. At any rate, my priority is how "much" to enjoy the episode (over and over again), not how "quick" to enjoy it for the first time (and most likely the last time). I would be more than happy if true fans of each episode can enjoy their shows with my well-tuned subs. That is my humble desire here.

I guess I said more than enough asked. Well, if not, just let me know.

[SimplyTheBOSS]

to: SimplyTheBOSS
You are saying that once the line rule is changed, there would be many "best" versions and chaotic. I claim there is no one "best" version for everyone. You also said you have never heard of complaints about short lines. Now you have, right? I have a complaint about it. If I have, maybe some other, even a few, have as well. Or maybe they never imagined they could complain at all!
And yes, that is my own subtitle blog. Everyone can download from there too. But does that mean my subs should be excluded from here? If OS.org has a rule that a sub cannot be public elsewhere once it is uploaded here, then your idea is logical, I think. Anyway, that blog is just my backup in case, in addition to local. It would go private at any time.

First of all, I don't make any decisions here, I'm just a low-level assistant, those were just my personal opinions, they don't represent the site. There is no such rule so don't worry about that. Yes, now I have, it was the first complaint about that. Don't worry about me, I don't have any power to make decisions, all I can do is tell my own opinion.
[EDIT]
What I meant by saying "best versions and chaotic" is that users might be confused if there's 50 different versions available. Do they have to download each version and test which is the "correct" version?

[jcdr]

Okay, the vote has not progressed, only four votes but none for a simple yes.

The point from STB "that users might be confused if there's 50 different versions available. Do they have to download each version and test which is the "correct" version?" is highly relevant, it is a problem all users are confronted to when they seek a movie subtitle -and more so for the TV series.

But given the time and dedication 2HB gives to his subs, I really see no reason to keep them disabled. With time, as 2HB stated, people will get to know the uploader. So I do enable them back. But please 2HB, do take the time to copy a note on line length on every one of them, and for future uploads.

[SmallBrother]

2Hb,
I have to agree with STB about long lines not being very compatible, and it being an important issue. You are saying that IF one uses 'your' player and IF the settings are correct, there is no problem. My point is that if NOT, there IS a problem. Also, you point out that with short lines there could be a problem (FOUR lines) if the settings are not correct. Didn't you just make the point that settings should be correct - then no problem. The same is valid for short lines.

Also that - even if there is no "best", it would be pretty messy, and therefore hard to choose for anyone who wants a subtitle. Long lines vs. short lines, utf-8 vs. ascii, accented vs. non-accented, spell checked, timings, releases, oh my god. It makes sense to comply with at least SOME minimum so that downloaders know what to expect. I think that's what the 'rules' are for. I remember downloading 20 different subs for one movie, trying to figure out WHAT is the difference and moreover WHICH one I want.

From my point of view, the whole thing about long lines makes sense *to some extend*, I just think in general that the price is just a bit too high for just a small benefit.

I also have to agree with jcdr, since the subs have some good sides and bad sides (if I may call it that way). Sure, enable them. As I said in an earlier post, it would be pretty crucial to make a comment about the lines being long, as 'service' to the downloader. Part of it could (should) be that timings are very nice and made one by one. Knowing so, I would choose your subs - and then add some line feeds

I also have to agree with some points you are making. The fact that your subs are somewhere else is no reason to deny them here. And once again, I really appreciate someone making subs as a FAN and doing his best and actually watching the movie, instead of just fast and furious translations. That's why my uploads are just a handful, instead of a zillion.

But I still don't really understand why those long lines are *so* important to you. So important that it seems to overrule any other negative side effect or any other 'rule'. I don't think breaking after 90 characters and 4 or 5 seconds is a crime, or even annoying. Break at a pause, or after a groups of words, a 'natural' point. Subtitling is a lot of compromising. And the more difficult the situation is, the rougher the compromise will be. Going blind on only the 40 chars/line rule is silly, I agree. But -forgive me- going blind on ANYTHING is silly. Sometimes I have two lines of 46, sometimes I have 40+10 instead of 2x25, sometimes I have timings of just 0.7 seconds, sometimes one needs to read with 28 chars/sec, sometimes I even skip something which is said. Bad boy, very ugly. But when I make a sub, every line again I make the choice in which way I wanna be bad. And I hope the result will be that at the end my subs were not noticed. I think THAT should be the main rule

In other words, why don't you add some line feeds on your perfect timings. I think I would love to use your subs - if only I would watch those series

Oh, and it's not true what STB is saying. He could ban all of us in one mouse click and disable the entire internet next.
Really.

[2Hb]

(mostly to: SmallBrother, but not exclusively)
There is one thing you guys misunderstanding about my long line policy. It is not *indefinite* one long line. It has own limit, which I find is about 154 characters. Any longer line than that, I break whenever there is a pause if any, or if not, wherever I think appropriate to break in terms of meaning. There are certain characters who speak very long lines without any slight pause like Spencer and Garcia from Criminal Minds and Sheldon from TBBT. They are my nightmare. The number 154, I find in Criminal Minds S08E13 is where Garcia speaks with a pause, a stutter, an interruption, and of course, including some spaces. So, in this rare extreme case, the actual meaningful characters are only 111 letters of A-Z. When these letters are shown in two lines, which is the case to me, each line equals to about 55-56 letters. That is not much different to me compared to 40-45 characters per line rule. Yes, I know in that rule, you also count spaces as well, but still.
The number (about 154, this depends on what characters are involved in a line because my font is proportional) is set so that a long line is displayed in two lines with auto-wrap, with my settings such as font size, because the subs are for my personal use in the first place. I am not bothered when you get it and insert breaks/LF wherever you want. That is your choice; I do not care. That is why I make them open here, otherwise I would keep them private. But when you want to do it, please do it at your cost. I cannot adjust the number so as everyone is satisfied.
So, to: SmallBrother, mine is not "ANYTHING." There is a rule even in long line. The number/limit is *somewhere around* 154.

Another point of misunderstanding is that you all assume you always read all of the script from head to toe. Do you? I honestly do not follow all of my script, not because I make it by myself and already knew what is there, but because I can hear most of what they say without reading the line. I only take a look at it when a line becomes too complicated or when they speak so fast and hard to catch up everything they say. Even in these cases, I just pick up some uncertain words and phrases among a long line. So, even it is a long line, I just give a peek at somewhere, which happens to be left side, middle or maybe right side. You may think this movement of eyes is tiresome, but even in two short lines, they have to move up and down to search the words that you are looking for. Besides, as I explained many times, you have longer time in long line than you have in short line. This further makes easier to lock on the place you want. This is where I see an advantage in long line policy.

This one as well I remember explained over times, but one of the reasons why I stick with one line policy except dialog, is this: when you put a break in a line and make it two lines out of rather short line, say, 55 characters, there is no way to *auto-unwrap* them into one short line with any of player software (if there is, let me know). Most subtitle software do have such correction function, but using one of them only to fix this is troublesome, like you feel with my long lines needed to be fixed by hand or by software. To me, forced two lines even slightly over the 40-4? whatever number is quite annoying, because they interfere the screen with one more extra line with just fewer number of characters like 25 or something. Don't you think? I mean, my subs too show two lines, of course. But even for those short lines too? I like short line displayed in only one line even it exceeds the limit of 40 something. When it even exceeds the point where one line is not enough, I want it to be displayed as two lines with auto-wrap. When two line with auto-wrap is not enough, then I finally have to break it at somewhere. That is my basic idea of one long line policy/rule. Of course, when there is a period, a pause, I dare to break it as you see lots of "..." at the end of lines in my subs. "..." in the end of line, unlike other subs, means there comes a continuing line from the same speaker. So, when you see that, you know the line does not end there. If it does (interrupted), I use "--" instead.

I truly hope now you can understand why I stick with one line rule so much. I know, some of you still do not agree on my theory. It is your choice. I respect that. I already read through most of the discussions in other threads here as well, especially the ones relating to subtitle rules. I think we both know we are NOT forcing our rules onto one another.

To conclude the discussion here, if I may, I will make the following promises:
1) I will put "long line" warning comment on each and every sub I will upload.
2) I will put "long line" warning comment on each and every sub I have uploaded so far as well.
3) Until 2) is done for all the existing subs, I will not upload any of my subs here.
(Oh, and so as not anyone would confuse, would some of you make a template of "long line" comment for me? Or just putting two words "[long line]" or "long line." at the head of comment suffices?)

As for vote, I have not voted yet. I do not know what is the best choice for me. I mean, I already accepted that I will make a long line comment. So, honestly absolute "Yes" is not valid choice of vote anymore, right? Then, maybe conditional "Yes" is my choice, I think. Someone here commented the vote was not going very well. I even do not know when is the deadline. That is another big problem. Yes, voting is quite democratic process, but how many of the users would actively join this? There are as many as thousands of users per a subtitle out there. Vast majority of them even do not know that there is this forum here, I guess. If they would, they do not care to vote by registering as a forum user as well as a user at the web. I myself would not have registered here unless my subs had been disabled. Although for some time, at least a couple of years, I have been reading some of the threads. I know there is no good way to involve those users to join the vote, and this is the best possible way to decide on such a matter. But, do our thoughts really count for their preferences? I am quite doubtful. I am not saying this, because right now the conclusion seems to favor for me. Even so, I think users really do not care much about this issue. I would like to know how many of the downloaders are actually registered at the web. I am curious, because even I got disabled half of my subs due to the fact, I have got no negative comment against any of them. They are just silent. I do know there are some users who make comment like they did to some of the power subtitlers like elderman. If the long line matter is really a problem, why would not even one of them just speak up before and even after M3tal someone disabled them? I mean, the rest half are still out there, available for download, and they are made under the same rules of mine! I really do not get this.

Oh, I almost forgot.
to: SimplyTheBOSS (and maybe jcdr)
Yes, I got that. I feel the same way when I use subscene to get a movie subtitle. That is chaos out there, even some of the subtitlers includes release names in their file names. But, aren't you talking about too much imaginary situation? I mean, I do not see any clear rule that excludes duplicate subtitles per episode, but still there has not been so many similar subtitles concentrated on a single episode. Is there? I guess if an alternative or any alternative is to be allowed, there would be not many subtitles uploaded, from 5 or 6 subtitlers at most. 50? Really? It is just my guess, but I do not see as many as hundreads of subs per episode coming into. So, realistically speaking, it is choice among a few subtitlers, and the choice is almost made by download counts and names of subtitlers, I think. Then, I do not think that is much of a problem. Because, conventional subtitlers are really quick and always have had enough download count that stands out; they also are quite members of status here; most of all, they have been well-known. So, unless users have particular reason to choose otherwise, I think most understandable behavior of them is to choose the "usual" one. Out of 10-20 subs, what is the problem? There has been already as many as 6 subs per episode including micro, standard, HD with HI on/off.

Anyway, enough complaints by me. I think I have made clear all of my points so far.
Rest assured.

[jcdr]

I also have to agree with jcdr, since the subs have some good sides and bad sides (if I may call it that way). Sure, enable them. As I said in an earlier post, it would be pretty crucial to make a comment about the lines being long, as 'service' to the downloader. Part of it could (should) be that timings are very nice and made one by one. Knowing so, I would choose your subs - and then add some line feeds

Yes, yes! That's exactly what I would do. It takes one minute to split the lines, but it takes four times the length of the movie to sync the subs correctly, and this is why 2HB subs are of interest. But let it be clear: a sub with long lines and no other benefits/improvements would still be rejected on OS.

The whole syndication industry has agreed that 38-42 chars per line was the standard to fit most medias. But many translations take much more space than the original English text, so I think most subfans prefer a sub with few lines up to 50 chars on a 16/9 screen, than cutting from the original closed captioning. But that should be limited to non-English subs.

As for using only ASCII characters, I am old enough to remind the times where companies were trying to compress emails on 7-bits to save bandwidth. 56 kbits was the norm then. It gave way to stupid standards such as ISO 2022, trying to fit 5000 chinese characters with a 7-bits encoding!
Does it make sense not to write proper English now? What is the point wishing to write e.g. frappe, naive, souffle, expose, resume, rose, cafe, instead of frappé, naïve, soufflé, exposé, résumé, rosé, café?

Anyway, smallbrother got the point, time to write some guidelines for OS subtitles.

[jcdr]

(Oh, and so as not anyone would confuse, would some of you make a template of "long line" comment for me? Or just putting two words "[long line]" or "long line." at the head of comment suffices?)

If you agree, I would put "CAUTION: LONG LINES WITH MORE THAN 50 CHARS PER LINE". See http://www.opensubtitles.org/fr/subtitles/4795643/.

This one as well I remember explained over times, but one of the reasons why I stick with one line policy except dialog, is this: when you put a break in a line and make it two lines out of rather short line, say, 55 characters, there is no way to *auto-unwrap* them into one short line with any of player software (if there is, let me know).

Subtitle Edit:
Options->Settings->General, put Single line max. length to 154, and Merge lines shorter than 99.
Then do Tools->Fix common errors, and Tools->Merge short lines, with Maximum characters in one paragraph set to 154.

[SimplyTheBOSS]

to: SimplyTheBOSS (and maybe jcdr)
Yes, I got that. I feel the same way when I use subscene to get a movie subtitle. That is chaos out there, even some of the subtitlers includes release names in their file names. But, aren't you talking about too much imaginary situation? I mean, I do not see any clear rule that excludes duplicate subtitles per episode, but still there has not been so many similar subtitles concentrated on a single episode. Is there? I guess if an alternative or any alternative is to be allowed, there would be not many subtitles uploaded, from 5 or 6 subtitlers at most. 50? Really? It is just my guess, but I do not see as many as hundreads of subs per episode coming into. So, realistically speaking, it is choice among a few subtitlers, and the choice is almost made by download counts and names of subtitlers, I think. Then, I do not think that is much of a problem. Because, conventional subtitlers are really quick and always have had enough download count that stands out; they also are quite members of status here; most of all, they have been well-known. So, unless users have particular reason to choose otherwise, I think most understandable behavior of them is to choose the "usual" one. Out of 10-20 subs, what is the problem? There has been already as many as 6 subs per episode including micro, standard, HD with HI on/off.

Anyway, enough complaints by me. I think I have made clear all of my points so far.
Rest assured.

Have you think about that it may be due to the fact that administrators have removed bad/unnecessary subtitles?
However, you have to admit that this is not an ideal situation: http://www.opensubtitles.org/en/search/ ... id-1971833
I think the site should be as simple as possible for the regular user, no need to think about which player is compatible with subtitles, no need to think which subtitle should use and so on, basically "download and watch" is the ideal way for most regular users.

[2Hb]

to: jcdr
Okay. I will use "CAUTION: LONG LINES WITH MORE THAN 50 CHARS PER LINE" for my comment.
But it may take some time to put it all of my subs. Please be patient. Hopefully within a few days. When it's done, I will PM to you guys.
And no. I meant, "any of player software." Not subtitle edit software. Suppose I am just one of regular users.

to: SimplyTheBOSS
Ooh. I have not seen that. At first sight, I thought it was a movie. Hmm... no power subtitler and all of anonymous ones, eh? I guess I have only watched very nicely controlled titles thanks to you guys.

[arcchancellor]

I also have to agree with jcdr, since the subs have some good sides and bad sides (if I may call it that way). Sure, enable them. As I said in an earlier post, it would be pretty crucial to make a comment about the lines being long, as 'service' to the downloader. Part of it could (should) be that timings are very nice and made one by one. Knowing so, I would choose your subs - and then add some line feeds

Yes, yes! That's exactly what I would do. It takes one minute to split the lines, but it takes four times the length of the movie to sync the subs correctly, and this is why 2HB subs are of interest. But let it be clear: a sub with long lines and no other benefits/improvements would still be rejected on OS.

The whole syndication industry has agreed that 38-42 chars per line was the standard to fit most medias. But many translations take much more space than the original English text, so I think most subfans prefer a sub with few lines up to 50 chars on a 16/9 screen, than cutting from the original closed captioning. But that should be limited to non-English subs.

I agree with both of you completely. I handle this similar with my own fansubs. Many non-english subs (like germans) should be shortened after the official syndication industry standards, because they have a different language structure. But I hate to leave out words or whole sentences and I always try to avoid it. For my own fansubs I go up to 50 characters per line and with precise timing. Inaccurate timing is very annoying. That's why I take more time "as usual" for my own subs: to make an exact timing one by one.

And I agree with 2Hb in case of fast viewing of subs.
You do not necessarily read every single word of a very long item. Normally needs a quick glance where you catch the item and than in your mind thus complements the spoken dialogue without much thought about it.

As I said before: I for myself like subs with exact timings and even if 2Hbs subs are longer, small brother said it before: I can break it down to two lines. But at least they are exists and they are well-timed. With an appropriate notice "over 50 characters per line" or so everyone can decide if he uses it or not.

When I translate subs into german, I'm lucky if I find subs with already correct timing I can work with. And even then I usually check item by item.
And in some cases (where I like the specific movie much more than others) I overwork the "official" german subs, cause they have a cruel timing and after that I leave a commentary for users to see whats different related to the "officials", like here: http://www.opensubtitles.org/de/subtitl ... -s-baby-de

So let's take the subs, mark them with a clue and all is well.

[oss]

guys, I am reading what you writing, I agree, some of you admins, enable those subtitles, and let JHb mark them as mentioned.