guidelines for subs

[SmallBrother]

I am wondering what are the guidelines for making good subtitles. I do know about the existence of Google ;-) but I am wondering what you guys think about it. Let me explain.

I mean, for example, keeping lines to a maximum of 40 chars. But what if a line becomes 41 chars? And what if it is 44 chars? 50? One has to decide what to do, and make some kind of 'optimum-decision'. I am talking about the conflict between the number of characters, the time one has to read that line, the readability decrease when it is split by a hard return (the eyes will have to travel), or -even worse- by a completely new line (the yes will lack an 'overview'), or taking away some of the original meaning. Creativity is tough.

Then there is for example 'comment' text. I mean text which is not spoken, but like a non-existing voice-over explaining what is going on. Sometimes there is a lot to read. Like in a documentary, the name of a person speaking, his function, some more data, etc. Sometimes one must choose between forcing to read 150 characters in 0.8 seconds (good luck), or doing some nasty tricks (nasty). What is preferred?

And what about hard returns? Look:

(40/15)
I can split one long line into two lines
after ch #40.

or

(30/31)
I can split one long line into
two more or less equal lines.

What is nicer to read..?

And then what about compatibility? I mean for example italics. Great to use this for 'thoughts' of a person, or the above mentioned comments, or a line which is not translated, because in the context of the movie it should not be translated (like "hasta la vista, baby" in Terminator 2). What to do? Use italics, or not? And with <i> and </i> or just <i> (subtitle workshop is not showing the end-tag, even if it's present in the source).

And what about the three dots after a split line, if according to the grammar, there should be a comma? Include those three dots anyway, or is the comma enough to show that another part is coming? Look:

Is the comma enough,

or should there be dots?

or

is the comma enough,...

or should there be dots?

Life is tough, eh?

[Salvins]

Er gelden voor Nederlandse ondertitels andere regels dan voor Engelse of Amerikaanse, bij ons worden kreten Nooit vertaald
en zo min mogelijk lange regels, sommigen houden 49 karakters per regel aan.
Spaties zijn ook karakters....
Voor de vertaalregels, kun je terecht hier: http://forum.ondertitel.com/index.php?showtopic=7199
Dear Moderator/ Administrator
I explain here what are the rules in our country about to make a subtitle.

[arcchancellor]

Some rules are good, some not.
It's not wrong to consider them, but you should not slavishly stick to it.

My personal position is, that we should translate the spoken language very carefully, without reduction.
I've spoken with deafs and all of them were dissatisfied about shortened subtitles.
So personally I translate everything that is spoken exactly.
I've been using up to 50 characters per line and arrange two line items most in such a way that they look relatively the same length, but not ever. Sometimes is the speech rhythm more important.

I use dots at phrases that go over several items at the end of the first item and at the beginning of the next, because I have noticed that you read items with dots fluently, because the dots point out that the statement continues.
In these cases I do not use commas, just the dots.

For touhts and phonecalls I use italics ever with <i> and </i>, because some players have problems with not closed italic lines. Don't know, why Subtitle Workshop not close these lines.
For labels and other inscriptions I use capitalization for better contrasting.

Conclusion: I rely on the user.
If anyone watching movies with subtitles, then he gets used to detect the subtitles quickly. So I think it is wrong to shorten it and adulterate the original speech.

Just my 2 cents.

[SmallBrother]

Voor de vertaalregels, kun je terecht hier: http://forum.ondertitel.com/index.php?showtopic=7199

Thanks Salvins, but... Doesn't work. I need to register first before I can access that file. But okay. I used a throw-away email account (I don't know them). In the registration process I calculated what is 15 minus 5. I logged in to my throw-away account, I confirmed the registration, clicked your link again. Doesn't work. I followed the link from their forum topic after being logged-in. Doesn't work. And, let me guess, I need the latest version of MS Office to open the file, once I can finally access it. I don't think I will go back to that web site.

Is anything like that document available for normal creatures? Maybe an idea to have it available somewhere on this forum, maybe just plain text in a forum topic, or at least in a slightly more compatible format, like .pdf (although I love .txt)?

[SmallBrother]

So personally I translate everything that is spoken exactly.

Sure, that's the ideal world. But what if a good translation brings you let's say three lines of 60 chars, and/or too little time to actually read it? Should one (or, would you) choose for a slightly shortened translation, too long lines, or too short time?

For touhts and phonecalls I use italics ever with <i> and </i>, because some players have problems with not closed italic lines. Don't know, why Subtitle Workshop not close these lines.

Ah, so italics are enough compatible?

Subtitle Workshop *shows* only the opening tag, even if the source has the closing tag as well. So I guess I would have to make italics (including the closing tag, for maximum portability) in a plain text editor, and then not touch it anymore in SW, right?

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your money, Arcchancellor.

[arcchancellor]

But what if a good translation brings you let's say three lines of 60 chars, and/or too little time to actually read it? Should one (or, would you) choose for a slightly shortened translation, too long lines, or too short time?

That's really a difficult problem.
Too long or maybe 3 lines are not good. In this case is a slightly shortened translation the only choice. Unfortunately.

Subtitle Workshop *shows* only the opening tag, even if the source has the closing tag as well. So I guess I would have to make italics (including the closing tag, for maximum portability) in a plain text editor, and then not touch it anymore in SW, right?

Because I've no longer worked with SW for years I knew not, that this is only a display idiosyncrasy of the program. But sometimes (but rarely) I've got subs from friends who work with SW and these srts really have only the opening tag. Maybe it depends on a special adjustment during storage...

However, it's a good idea to control the srt if really italic end tags in it.

[SmallBrother]

Voor de vertaalregels, kun je terecht hier: http://forum.ondertitel.com/index.php?showtopic=7199

Thanks Salvins, but... Doesn't work. (...)

Thanks for the email.

Maybe an idea to have it available somewhere on this forum, maybe just plain text in a forum topic, or at least in a slightly more compatible format, like .pdf (although I love .txt)?

Great idea, SmallBrother ;-) So now I would like to make it easily available to others as PDF or TXT, instead of a link to another website where you first have to register... But it looks like attachments are disabled. So what shall I do:
- Make it a plain text forum topic?
- Wait for an admin to allow me to post an attachment, or asks me for the file and post it himself,
- Upload it on bayfiles.com or so and make a link to that file?

And I am wondering, I guess it should be in the foreign languages section, right?

[SmallBrother]

Subtitle Workshop *shows* only the opening tag, even if the source has the closing tag as well. So I guess I would have to make italics (including the closing tag, for maximum portability) in a plain text editor, and then not touch it anymore in SW, right?

Because I've no longer worked with SW for years I knew not, that this is only a display idiosyncrasy of the program. But sometimes (but rarely) I've got subs from friends who work with SW and these srts really have only the opening tag. Maybe it depends on a special adjustment during storage...

However, it's a good idea to control the srt if really italic end tags in it.

i just found out SW's behaviour: Apparently one need to write <i> only at the beginning of a line, and SW will (invisably) add an </i> at the end of that line. Hardcoding an </i> at the end will actually result in a double end tag: </i></i>. Haven't checked how that behaves in an average player ;-)

[Salvins]

Last situation is not true, it only will be one </i>.
But for example:
23
00:04:34,004 --> 00:04:37,178
Hij liegt.
- <i>Nu moet je kiezen...</i> will become:

23
00:04:34,004 --> 00:04:37,178
<i>Hij liegt.
- Nu moet je kiezen...</i>
I am using Subtitle Workshop and I know this situation.

I always check after and changes it back.

Using: Gereedschap...Informatie en fouten...Repareer fouten gives another problem:
(1) De I in Ieder...Iedereen...Iets will be a l (el).
(2) 't, 'm, 's, 'n are placed directly after the words before.
So: Hij heeft't gedaan....Hij heeft 't gedaan.
So you have to see about all 't, 's, 'm, 'n in the subtitle.

[SmallBrother]

Maybe an idea to have it available somewhere on this forum, maybe just plain text in a forum topic

That's what I just did (thanks for the PM, SimplyTheBoss):
Guidelines for subtitles in Dutch

[srtpal]

Personally, I follow the Code of Good Subtitling Practice, which is endorsed by the European Association for Studies in Screen Translation.

[eduo]

Personally, I follow the Code of Good Subtitling Practice, which is endorsed by the European Association for Studies in Screen Translation.

Sadly these guidelines fall awfully short of practical advice. A "regular viewer reading rythm" is highly subjective, whereas "35 characters per line, no more than two lines per subtitle, reading speed never over 150 chars per second" is practical advice that can be easily proofed.

For example: http://www.bokorlang.com/journal/04stndrd.htm

[srtpal]

Interesting page, though it is highly anglocentric, so much of it makes no sense in a language other than English.

[eduo]

Interesting page, though it is highly anglocentric, so much of it makes no sense in a language other than English.

"For example"

[srtpal]

"For example"

For example, it says to use “I’d” instead of “I should” – something that makes no sense in any language except English. Or its use of quotes follows English rules. In Slovak we don’t write “Ahoj” but „Ahoj“ so why should we use a different system for our subtitles? And we never use single quotes.

Also, its talk about 180 words per minute may be true for English, where most words are short, one or two syllables. But most European languages use much longer words, or rather a combination of some short and many long words. So the speed of reading cannot be the same, in words per minute, as in English.

It is also often impossible to make both lines of equal length precisely because of a long word in the middle of the sentence.

We also have strict rules about placing a comma (while English is fairly free about using them). We would be breaking the rules of our orthography if we skipped a comma at the end of a subtitle and replaced it with three dots.

And we really hate it when someone who knows nothing about our rules wants to impose foreign rules on our language. As I’m sure English speakers would be annoyed if a Slovak insisted they use Slovak rules (or the rules of any other foreign language).